EP 17: Wendy Dickinson - Psychology of the M & A Process

Ed Mysogland  0:00  
Today 80% of businesses don't sell to be a part of the 20% that do and at maximum value, you'll need a successful strategy. Welcome to the defenders of business value podcast where we interview today's top professional advisors who help business owners create, preserve, and most importantly, transfer value. If you want actionable tips that will increase your business value. Stay tuned. The podcast starts now with your host Ed miso glad I had the opportunity to talk to Wendy Dickinson and I had met her in Dallas at a workshop and she's doing some real cutting edge things. Those of us that are in valuation and sale work, I can tell you that. So much of the challenges that we face are emotional, and her practice ascend to sell just hits it head on. And I'm telling you, this is a real great interview. So for those of you who are thinking about selling in the next 30 days, or 30 months, this is a one of those episodes that you want to listen to. This interview is chock full of all kinds of good things and tips about preparing yourself emotionally for what's coming down the road. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Wendy Dickinson. I'm your host Ed Mysogland. I teach business owners how to build value and identify and remove risks in their business so that one day they can sell their business at maximum value when they want, how they want and to whom they want. On today's show, I cannot tell you how excited I am to welcome Wendy Dickinson of ascend to sell. Wendy Dickinson is the founder of ascend to sell. And that is a coaching firm specializing in working with business owners and executives on the psychological and neurological aspects of transition. She was raised with small business in her blood, She hails from a family of entrepreneurs, so she has experienced this. She's passionate about seeing the business owners who have spent their lives building businesses reap the rewards of their efforts. She coaches clients using a growth mindset and self awareness to position them for a successful transition from beginning den to Wendy, welcome to the show.

Wendy Dickinson  2:06  
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on today. Oh,

Ed Mysogland  2:11  
likewise, when we had the opportunity to meet I was, I knew I had to get you on. So this is this is really exciting for me. So I gave the audience a little about you and your your company. But I guess Can you elaborate a little bit more on what you do and how you do it,

Wendy Dickinson  2:28  
I would be glad to because I'd like to share with everybody why I got into this. So as I've mentioned, I grew up in a family of business owners. And you know, and I know you've seen this before, right? Business owners to create a job for themselves and business owners, you create an asset. And the people in my family are makers and doers. And we are really good with our hands and things like that. And so my family was great at creating jobs for themselves and really terrible at creating assets. And on the other hand, my husband and I with another couple started a business with the intention to create an asset and we prepared and and created every system and process with the idea of what our ideal acquirer would like and add it was magical. I mean, there was no back and forth about who was right and who was wrong and ego and that sort of thing. It was all about what decision brought us closer to our goals. And we have been friends for a long time. And the other goal we had was to maintain our friendship and by using the goals and our values as people as as our guardrails, not only were we able to sell to our ideal acquirer, but we are all still friends today. And I feel like that's how it can be. And it just isn't like that often enough.

Ed Mysogland  3:50  
We fight that same battle with everyone, when they go to sell, they believe that they they have an asset, when in fact, they're just a high paying job. And that's one of the first questions that I have is is how do you how do you get someone to prepare for a transition when you emotionally and and to backup a little bit? You know, we've seen statistics in our shop as well as I've seen it nationally that about 40% of the deals that failed to consummate, it's something other than financial. So there's that emotional challenge that that the seller or the business owner has to overcome. So I mean, how do you prepare the business owner for that?

Wendy Dickinson  4:38  
Well, there are a lot of steps that you can take. And first of all, I just want to acknowledge, you know, I hope your listeners understand how true what you just said really is. So often, we fail to appreciate how much of our identity we build around our businesses. And I have a couple of acronyms that I like to but it's the businesses my baby owner, and then that owner that suffers from what I call gifts syndrome, which is a grandiose inflated valuation expectation. And those things while they're, they're humorous, and we all laugh about that when I was at the workshop that you and I met, when we met, it really is a serious issue because it affects the the purchase price, it affects how well the business owner is able to lead their team throughout the transaction. And also add it affects how well that owner is able to work with their their external advisors to cross the finish line. And the the thing that I think is oftentimes ignored is how important those emotional but a neurological aspects of each person involved in the transaction is to the bottom line to the purchase price to the the various clauses and conditions that are negotiated throughout the process.

Ed Mysogland  6:04  
Well, I follow the psychological but tell me tell, can you elaborate on the neurological what what does that mean?

Wendy Dickinson  6:10  
Yeah, so we're beginning to learn so many things about our brains. And I find that fascinating. We now know that for example, if we have fact a, and we have fact, C, our brains are going to fill in something that's going to connect a and see and allow us to store those two pieces of information in a way that makes sense. And the problem is, is that if it's an accurate filler, well, that's great. But again, our brains don't care about that part. So sometimes owners present as exaggerating, sometimes key members present as being on slightly out there, over stating something, or at times, just plain making something up. And now we know that the person is intentionally lying, or exaggerating, or trying to put a spin on something, but the person's brain is trying to present the sequence of events or the facts involved in an orderly fashion. And the only way that person's brain has been able to do that is by creating this link, that unfortunately, isn't true. And so that's one factor that can really have an influence on the ability of the external adviser to really do their job and, and create a very strong trusting working relationship. The other thing that I think is so interesting, too, for our conversations purposes, is that many advisors tell their, their their clients with the very best of intentions, to take the emotion out of decisions. And, and the scary thing is to make really good decisions, we need those emotions. And, you know, hands down, let's let's separate emotion from extreme emotion. We you and I have both seen clients who have been so wrapped up in what's going on so wrapped up in their business, they're wrapped up in the the valuation that's assigned to the business so wrapped up in who's going to buy and for how much and what's going to happen to their employees, that sometimes extreme emotion comes out. And I'm not saying that that extreme emotion is value added in this situation, because it's not. However, if we tell our clients that they need to take the emotion out of it, we've actually gone too far in the other direction. What we know now again, from neuroscience is that people who have sustained brain injuries where they can no longer access their emotions are not able to make even the most basic decisions. And there was one subject of a study and his name is Elliot, and she had sustained a head injury. And so Elliot was tested in a number of different ways. But one of the results that surprised me so much, was that Elliott sat in front of two identical pieces of paper with nothing written on them and was not able to choose between the two. Isn't that amazing?

Ed Mysogland  9:26  
It is, you know, and a couple hours ago, I was with with a couple business owners and the air just came out of the room. I mean the the level of disappointment in you know, and granted I mean the people that they had worked with before you know, the financial planner and and all the planning that they had done for, you know, their retirement. And you're talking about extreme emotion, I mean that they didn't get upset, but you could just, you could just feel how how like oh my gosh, Everything that we plan for is now totally off the table. And, and I was trying to think of, you know, how would I have shared that news with them

Wendy Dickinson  10:13  
differently? Or framed

Ed Mysogland  10:15  
it differently? Because offer and that's one of the other questions I have down the road was, you know, when offers start coming through and people start assigning something to an asset that has an emotional value mean, how do you either offset it or accept it? Or I guess in this case, counter it?

Wendy Dickinson  10:35  
Yeah. I'm so glad you bring up this question. And I feel as though this is such an important issue. What I try to do with my clients, when I have the opportunity to work with someone in advance of beginning the transaction is to talk about contingency plans. And what I really encourage people to do, is, let's think of the best case scenario and Edie you and I know people love that one. Right? That was fun to do. That's great. But also, let's think of the worst possible scenario. And I don't mean as in, you know, Apocalypse, but I mean, as in what you just described, because that that is a very likely situation. And so, in that in that exercise, if you will, what is the worst possible outcome? To take a look at? How do you feel? How do you feel even imagining the worst possible outcome? What are the salvageable items here? What is in Greece, I'm familiar with a situation where an owner, there were two partners, and they were actually family members and went into a transaction expecting between 10 and 15 million. And by the time the deal was done, they ended up with 4.5. That is vastly different. And so yeah, it did, and all of their financial planning was done around the higher range. And so what I encourage my clients to do is to really dive into what's the worst case scenario? And what does it look like not just how the world ends, but what does it look like, if we had been in a transaction for 12 months, or six months or whatever, it seems like a worst case scenario to them. And someone has come back and said, they only want our assets or someone has come back and said, We will give you a fraction of what you wanted. But we want you to stay on for five years. I mean, what is that person's worst case scenario? And then it really dive into it and explore the various manifestations of that. And so that equips that person also to go to their financial planner and say, Okay, what am I going to do, if I'm gonna get 4.5? Now, your situation is different, because you're in, you're engaged once the person is interested in the transaction happening imminently. And so there isn't always the time or the energy or the bandwidth to really dive into it, then. So a business broker or an investment banker, really has a disk is at a disadvantage, then? No, no, yeah,

Ed Mysogland  13:18  
I totally agree with you. And, and, and so often we we get into situations where it's, it's under duress, like, in this case, this guy, this guy has pancreatic cancer, he, he is in, you know, now, all of a sudden, I'm thinking about my wife, I'm thinking about my kids, I'm thinking about my employees, you know, you you have to help me here. And, and to deliver that, you know, I hear I hear what you want, but it's not financially feasible. And oh, my goodness, it was it was a rough one. Yeah. How do you fix that? I mean, that's the tough part is because so many of these business owners, and the people that are listening are probably, they're probably sitting here saying, Oh, this will never happen to me. I know better. And it just, it just after 2100 deals, we have seen people show up, and there's no preparation. And so I guess my where I'm heading is, what are the tips taking this emotionally charged asset and making it liquid? I mean, what do you think?

Wendy Dickinson  14:29  
I've got a number of tips that I'd love to share with you. But I also would like to just say to your listeners, that ad is not on here and his numbers are not off. I have been in in situations where people who are advisors have stood up and said, you know, the statistics are better. They're not better than 75% of businesses that go up for sale, never crossed the finish line of a transaction, and of the 25% that do close 75 to none 90% of that 25% Do not transition successfully. And so the merger or the acquisition or the sale, if you will, is considered a failure. So what to do, how to keep this from happening to you? First of all, what I'm going to suggest is you take a look at yourself, you, as an owner have the opportunity to really spend some time before you even begin to to embark on the path of selling your business to really take a look at who are you? Do you have a growth mindset? Or do you have a fixed mindset? What I mean by that? How do you how do you deal with failure? How do you deal with disruptions or innovations within your industry? How do you deal with cross generational communication? Then take a look at what are your blind spots? What are your values? How do your values as a person show up in the values of the business? And what I mean by that ad? Is not the the monetary valuation that you often are a are called upon to? To assess, but I'm talking about whether is it honesty? Is it personal freedom? Is it autonomy? Is it a sense of community, those values can act as guardrails for the owner, so let's just say the person that you just described to me, the sense of family, but also personal freedom. And then finally, community, let's say they're really concerned about their employees. Well, the the ideal offer for them is going to be one in which the multiple is good, the purchase price bits that multiple the buyer is willing to keep on the employees, but perhaps also continue to do some of the things in the community that the owner has, has traditionally done. And the owner is going to be able to act as a consultant for six months or so but isn't married to the job for five years. Okay, that all makes sense. So what's the worst case scenario with that? Well, any offer that bangs up against those three top values, you as an advisor are going to know that's going to be tough for your owner to swallow. So how can that owner recognize that those are his or her values, and those values are not being honored in the offer? Because then it takes it to another place? Right? Then the owner really has to look at prioritizing those values and prioritizing. Hopefully they have more than one offer, prioritizing the offers right based on those values. And I think the other thing that that people again, as I mentioned earlier, really undervalue is identity, right. So it's not only the identity of the company, which is certainly important values, Mission purpose, the ecosystem within the company, but also, does every person within the company, subscribe to the sense of being a cohort? Will they stay on? Are they they invested in the company? Are they engaged in the work? Has the the new owners values mission and purpose been communicated well, to the company, the existing cohort? Well, that's one piece, but the other identity is the identity of the owner, which I touched on earlier. And that is key to not only the owner managing to in a healthy way, separate from the company, and allow that company to go on and be absorbed by the next owner. But it allows that owner to really take a look at, in my worst case scenario, who am I? And what does it mean for my life going forward? For the person that's ill? That is a really meaningful question. And it's not something they can answer in five minutes on a phone call, it's something they really need to devote some thought to, and probably discuss with any mentors, they have any trusted advisors they have, but also their family members. And so that's where that acronym I shared with you braids comes in, because what we look at Dan if the owner can can look at the acronym brave, what that means is D is for belief. R is for ritual. A is for attributes, the for value, ie for emotionally meaningful experiences. So for a business, that means, you know, again, what, why was the company started? What's the mission there? And then what are the rituals? Does everybody get together for a company picnic or or is there did somebody deal with cancer and so, they sponsor the walk for life, I mean, what are the rituals that make that company unique that make it what it is? And then we mentioned values but emotionally meaningful experiences. So this means that somebody within the company, ideally a group of people, would be the, the holders of the instance Traditional knowledge, right? The curators of wisdom, if you will. So let's say the company really was hit hard in oh eight and oh nine with a downturn, but they made it. And maybe a core group of people came together and helped the company, whether that, are those people still there, or they celebrated? Is that part of company more? That is the kind of thing that can be passed on, and then used also in telling the story to the next owner? And so that is that company's identity. But then what does that have to do with the owner? Well, what are the owners beliefs, and rituals around the company? And how can the owner take those beliefs and rituals and attributes and values and emotionally meaningful experiences? And and while they acknowledge and affirm the role the company has played in that, then go on to create an identity that is Richard, and more valuable for their experiences at the company, but continues on outside of the company? And I think sometimes, you know, that that piece is left out?

Ed Mysogland  21:05  
No, I agree. And in fact, that from a tactical standpoint, if I'm, if I'm a buyer, and I understand this, and I understand what what makes the company tick, not not financially speaking, but just in this form. You know, there's statistics that it's not the highest price that gets the deal. It's the right buyer and for someone to, to embrace this, that they may not have the highest price, but they have the greatest likelihood of forwarding the legacy. I think that they're probably a good suitor, and would appeal greatly to the to the business owner. One of the things that you talked about was the growth mindset define that for me,

Wendy Dickinson  21:52  
I know that we've all heard people, and I'm gonna use this example, because it's such a common one, a parent will tell a child, you are so smart, or you are so athletic. Well, I mean, that that implies that the person was born with that particular attribute, and that there's really nothing they can do to develop that. Whereas somebody with a growth mindset when their child brings home and a on a math paper or whatever, that person might say, Oh, my gosh, you worked so hard, you deserve that a well done. I'm looking forward to seeing where you take this next. So in other words, yeah, you were born who you are, but you have the every means at your disposal to develop this through your work ethic, through your, your habits of study, through your own sense of of self discipline. And isn't it ironic, when we look at how helpful something like that would be when we're all in school, it's even more so when we start a business. Because in the beginning, of course, we're wearing a hat. And it's probably and I'm going to remind you guys that my family were the makers and doers, right? They could make anything, they could build anything, they could do anything. And they did that? Well, when they had the opportunity. The thing is, is that they didn't continue to push themselves to learn about how to create a sustainable business. And as a business owner, for those of you out there who do want to sell your business one day, or maybe you want to pursue a growth strategy by buying another business, having that growth mindset is going to allow you to see an event that happens not as something that's on your last nerve, or is you just can't take anymore, because again, that implies you have a fixed amount of energy or a fixed amount of patience or tolerance. But you're going to look at that thing and say, Hmm, what are my options? What can I learn from this? How do I move forward in a way that's aligned with my ultimate goal?

Ed Mysogland  24:01  
Yeah, one of the one of the books that that I read on that is Mindset by Carol Dweck. Yes. And it's, and the reason I bring that up is, is so many business owners think that getting to the finish line means I've made the decision to sell or I've made the decision to to transition to the next generation. And it's not and I think, I think that business are just, you know, there's a sigh of relief when I make the decision. And unfortunately, that's that's almost counterproductive that there's a, you know, typically at least a year to sell the company. And what I'm trying to formulate is is under the growth mindset, when you go to you get into the situation. Is there any, any way that you can emotionally embrace what's the The unknown that's forthcoming. Does that make sense?

Wendy Dickinson  25:03  
Yeah, it sure does. And I'm going to actually take this back to the example that you shared earlier. So with a growth mindset, that person is met with disappointment with the number. And with a growth mindset, the person is able to then take a breath, acknowledge it's disappointing, and begin to work with you and the other members of the team. What salvageable here? Where do we have room to negotiate? What things do we need to let go of? What things will we can we take out of this? And what has contributed to our getting to this point where the number is disappointing? Is there anything that we can do about that? Should we take the deal off the table? Should we wait, we, again, I understand that person has had health crisis. So that may not be possible, but for others of your listeners, sometimes it helps to say, if this is the best I can do right now is it worth it to me to work in another couple of years to build value and another way, and I think that's what a growth mindset can do for some business owner and for company. The other thing that I think is a great point that you skirted around a bit, but I work with clients on is creating additional bandwidth, physically and mentally, emotionally, however you want to put that, because during the transaction, you're right, it's not an overnight thing, making the decision to sell or buy is not the finish line. That is the beginning of a very demanding chap next chapter in that company's life. And so if the owner and the management team have worked together to take a look in the month prior to the transaction, to really take a look at what responsibilities can be and need to be shifted, who is going to be responsible for supplying the data room? Is that is the person who's going to be responsible for that the best person for that job? Because if it's not that person can be a real bottleneck for the transaction, is the owner able to devote a considerable period of time doing everything from supplying data, answering questions, hosting visitors, consulting with advisers, do the key people on the management team have time for that? If they don't, then what you're actually asking is to not only be with an owner, but everybody on your management team and your other key employees to work two full time jobs for up to a year to 18 months. And that's not a sustainable pace. And what you and I both know, add is that oftentimes, during that period of time, people are not able to do it, they're not able to sustain it. And so the business gets neglected. And then when you don't hit your numbers, that's an invitation to renegotiate a purchase price,

Ed Mysogland  27:51  
right? I mean, deal fatigue is a real thing that and in our business, time kills all deals, and when we start moving to the next quarter, and new informations coming out, and even though you can explain it away that, you know, I'm working on this deal, and I kind of let my foot off the gas? Well, like you said, I mean, there's there's reason now to renegotiate, and that's a tough spot to be, I want to be sensitive to your time. So I just have a couple more questions. And the first one is, so if I'm a business owner, and I'm three to five years out what emotional habits and I get accustomed to, that's going to increase my value.

Wendy Dickinson  28:33  
By the way, it's hard to choose just a couple. Okay, so, so let's go back to bandwidth again, and identity. So the first thing I'm going to recommend is the person really takes a look at their internal and external use of language around the company. So for example, have you as an owner, empowered your team, have you as an owner created the company so that you are not the center of that company universe, there are steps that you need to take to separate out so that the team has additional responsibilities. And you have you if any day to day operational responsibilities in the system where a process within the company relies on you as the owner, that's a problem that is a potential weakness, and that will take away from the value of your company. The other thing is, we know and I had a conversation actually with a private equity group, managing director back in May. And this person said to me, you know, we have we we in the private equity world have really taken a look at every financial model to try to continue to you know, incentivize, but also create profit for our shareholders. And, and we're running we're at the end of that, and now we've got to get creative. Well, for all you owners out there, culture is The way to get creative. I don't know if you know Ed Janet crowd sees with peach now, but she started circles. And then she did I think spire and she's also been on the faculty at Harvard. But anyway, Janet sold circles for 17 at EBIT da, due to culture. And that is just unheard of. But the company that bought them, that their culture was not only it that their culture was all about delivering on the quality of service, their mission, their purpose, their values, and every person that the prospective buyer spoke to within that company, they not only lived and worked those, that mission and those values, they were able to tell the company's story in a way that illustrated does values. So you know, looking at culture, that's one thing that's often ignored. And so that's something the owner can do five years ahead of time.

Ed Mysogland  31:05  
Yeah, the interesting thing is that we're seeing a lot of, of business, ours talk about culture, the problem that in my world is converting that to advice on value. And, you know, and I always tell our guys, I mean, that's more of a marketability standpoint than a value standpoint, I'm not so certain that after hearing you,

Wendy Dickinson  31:26  
well, can I tell you why, what how it translates into valuation. So let we, we all know, people, you all know this now that we are facing, facing labor shortage, it's there. And everything from trucking to health care. And also it in a lot of respects. Each of those, those industries are really being affected by the labor, labor shortage. And I think for those of your listeners who have restaurants or anything that that relies on hourly employees, we're seeing it there too, right. And so I'll give you an example. I know somebody who's a franchise owner, and this person has almost no turnover, which is incredible. And so he has created a family friendly culture. In his franchise, I have another client who owns brick and mortar restaurants. And so this has been a family business. And so this person is, was able to do this is crazy. But the business owners daughter, who is in our early 20s, has worked in the business since she was a kid, she has she and her parents have have created a means of not only rewarding teenage workers, but retaining them. And so that those two, those are two examples, real life examples of how creating culture really helps mitigate that labor issue. Another way is, what I would say is our our key performers within your organization. You know, if you have a culture that is sustainable, that the next buyer is committed to maintaining and learning from, then those key people are going to stay in place. And you are going to be able to document how long they've been there, what their learning and development goals have been what they've been able to achieve in place at your organization, as well as the contributions that they've made to the bottom line. That too, is value added. So I think Kevin, like for example, a Salesforce, right? Or an IT team, all of those things, if you can, if you in this day and time can demonstrate that you've never had a cybersecurity breach. That's huge.

Ed Mysogland  33:54  
Yeah, I think the same I think you're seeing and as it appeals to buyers, I think, especially those business owners that are probably, you know, going to hold on for another five years or so. And you start looking at the millennials that are looking at acquiring they, you know, they don't necessarily have the same financial motivation as perhaps my generation. And so culture, culture becomes a considerable factor in the likelihood it's going to sell. So I'm with you there, boy. So tell the listeners about your process. I mean, how does one come to work with you?

Wendy Dickinson  34:35  
So I ended up getting four jumping on points, really, the people who are our know that they want to buy or sell at some point. And I'm also working with people who are again, working hard to create an asset but maybe they're on a partnership or they have a family business, where the relationships have have really suffered. And so they really want an opportunity need to reset. And then finally, people who recognize that their company has gotten off track, again, culture, the values, the mission, the purpose, those types of types of things. The person, the business owner realizes that there's more work to be done there. And that actually fits my training quite well, because I was trained as an outpatient therapist. As I mentioned earlier, I've also been a business owner of several businesses sold one successfully. And so what I'm able to bring to those relationships is a process that looks at really taking, assessing where the person is what their goals are, really taking a look at what that person's identity is like the company's identity, a desired culture, the desired outcome, we also take a look at creating the opportunity to or I'm sorry, creating value in in ways that are opportunities that people leave on the table, or they don't recognize as being opportunities, like relationships, like culture, but also, in when I say relationships, I'm not talking about, you know, everyone sitting around singing Kumbaya, I'm talking about what are strategic relationships within the community or industry that you can formulate, that will strengthen your position. And so often people don't understand that those strategic partnerships can sometimes become your best prospective buyers, or sellers. So those are the kinds of things that I work with my clients on. And then the other thing is, for example, I'm working with someone right now, who has more than one company, and they are trying to develop their team so that the team can take over one company and they can step fully into the other. So those types of situations obviously require a great deal of awareness. And again, that growth mindset add, right? Because if we think we can only have you know, we can only do one thing at a time, well, we're selling ourselves short.

Ed Mysogland  37:18  
So is it kind of like a, I contact you and you have an exploratory conversation? And then you scope out the work? Or how does

Wendy Dickinson  37:27  
that work? Yes, I do. And so my website is a send to sell.com. And I schedule a chemistry call with someone I give them a questionnaire to answer have them read a little bit about what some of my other clients have said about working with me, as well as give them a little bit more about my background. And then we schedule a call, look at the scope of the work, really device in and see if there is a good fit, and, or whether I need to refer them on to someone else who I feel like would be more value added to their situation. And then I generally work with someone for four to eight months. People generally when they're working with a coach hit a downturn at about six weeks, and then again at about 12 weeks. And so 16 weeks gives gives them the opportunity to come back out of that, you know, we're human, we have our ups and downs. Well, I can

Ed Mysogland  38:25  
tell you in the workshop that I had the opportunity to participate with you as oh my goodness, we're our cutting edge stuff. And it truly is, there's, to my knowledge, there's not a whole lot of people that that are in your sandbox. And like I said 40% of deals the reason they don't they don't go together is every the entire reason the emotional reasons behind your services, so it is cutting edge stuff.

Wendy Dickinson  38:53  
Well, I would like to share with your your listeners there, I do have a free download, that's called your guide to 11 End Game task. And any of your listeners are welcome to go on their website and download that and I invite them to do so. And then the other book that I would recommend and then I get my clients to take a look at is called your brain at work by David Rock. And that's a really easy listen or read depending on if you like Audible books, but it gives your against your could give your listeners some ideas about what factors drive behaviors, how our brains function, where we get triggered, things like that. And and if your listeners would like some more ideas about reading materials, just have them reach out. I have a list that I'd be happy to share that I have for for my clients.

Ed Mysogland  39:48  
I'll have all the links to your website, everything that you referenced as well as LinkedIn, and Facebook. Is there one last piece of advice you'd give our listeners that would have the most immediate impact on their business value, what would it be,

Wendy Dickinson  40:03  
identify what your desired outcome is be really specific, and then reverse engineer it. You've got time, you've got the energy, you can do this. And then once you've taken it as far as you can get your team involved. Got it?

Ed Mysogland  40:20  
Awesome. Well, when he seriously I'm so grateful for how generous you were with your your time and experiences to help the our listeners maximize their value. And like I said, we'll make sure that everything that we talked about is in the show notes. So again, thank you so much for your time. And thank you for being a defender of business value.

Wendy Dickinson  40:41  
It is my pleasure and and I wish you well and I look forward to meeting you again soon.

Ed Mysogland  40:45  
Likewise. Thanks again.