EP 15: John Nieuwenburg - Coaching a Business Owner to Increase the Value of the Business

Ed Mysogland  0:00  
Today 80% of businesses don't sell to be a part of the 20% that do and at maximum value, you'll need a successful strategy. Welcome to the defenders of business value podcast where we interview today's top professional advisors who help business owners create, preserve, and most importantly, transfer value. If you want actionable tips that will increase your business value. Stay tuned. The podcast starts now with your host Edie my so glad if you ever wondered whether a coach is right for you. So I've been coached, athletically, you know, different types of coaches throughout my career. And, you know, there's good coaches and there's bad coaches, and I've had the personal experience with John Nuernberg W five coaching out of Canada. And truly, he is the real deal. So we talked a lot about how business owners can increase their value, how they can work with a coach and how they can most importantly, determine whether or not a coach is right for them. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with John Nuernberg. I'm your host, Ed Mysogland. I teach business owners how to build value and identify and remove risks in their business so that one day they can sell their business at maximum value when they want, how they want and to whom they want. On today's show, I am beyond excited to welcome John Nuernberg of W five coaching. John is an award winning business coach who has worked with hundreds of clients, John coaches in three primary areas business personal growth and accountability. In an earlier life, John was president of BC liquor stores that today does about 3 billion in revenue and about 1 billion in profit. Before that John was an executive with a national menswear retailer. Welcome to show, John.

John Nieuwenburg  1:50  
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here today.

Ed Mysogland  1:53  
Well, I gave a high overview of you and W five coaching. Can you please share a little bit more about you in the three years of coaching that you certainly are so well known for?

John Nieuwenburg  2:02  
Yeah, I've been a business coach for 15 years. I'm often asked how long have I been a business coach and the other answer, which is also true as all of my life. When I first started coaching in about 2004, I had a middle of the night kind of epiphany and moment of perfect clarity, where I was able to recognize that I've always been a coach, it might have been called different things at different parts of my life. But in fact, that's been my style. It's like it was Steve Jobs who said you're you can connect the dots going backwards in my epiphany was connecting some dots going back to, you know, my childhood to present day. So I'm hardwired to be a

Ed Mysogland  2:45  
coach, what is a coach define a coach for me,

John Nieuwenburg  2:49  
if you think about, there's a couple of ways that I can think about it. But one of the ways to think about it is if you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach them how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. So as a coach, I'm in the teaching, not the giving business, which is one of the you know, distinctions between a consultant who, you know, comes in and does the work. Whereas as a coach, my job is to teach you, you know how you might like to run your business a little bit better. I follow something called the Socratic method of leadership. So Socrates had it that the best way to help somebody is to help them figure it out for themselves. And the best way to do that is to guide them to make discoveries. And the way you guide them is by asking questions that forces them or helps them think about things that they might not otherwise have been thinking about. So my job as a coach is to help you figure it out for yourself so that it's your answer, not my answer, it's your answer. And as a result, you're going to own it and be much more likely to, you know, to be motivated to act on it and to make that happen. So are they put it the other way? I'm not in the you should business that that would be the exact opposite of what I think the role of a coach is.

Ed Mysogland  4:05  
But when you're coaching, it's really interesting that asking questions in order to elicit the answer, even though you don't know where the conversation is going. I mean, how do you position yourself to ask those good questions, not just questions, but good questions that, that bring out, you know, where that executive is trying to go? Well, first of all, you know,

John Nieuwenburg  4:28  
requires the owner and I to agree that that's the approach that's going to work for both of us so that, you know, we're going to play nice with each other. And the owner is open to the idea of being prodded and challenged and pushed a little bit. And in fact, for many owners, they actually appreciate that because in some ways, they don't get it anywhere else in their in their life to be tested and challenged and, and to, you know, sort of offer a bit of a A third party perspective. So first of all, it's, you gotta have permission you got, there's got to be an agreement in place that that's how it's gonna work. It starts real early, you know, even in sales meeting and my first meeting with an owner, they're going to experience what it's like to be coached, at least coached in the sell that I do it and, and that's why we refer to the initial meeting as a complimentary coaching session is designed to give everyone the opportunity to experience what their relationship can be like, and if the relationship could possibly work if the two parties agreed to work together.

Ed Mysogland  5:36  
And one of the things that is so interesting these days is that everyone seems to be a coach. And and, and this was just from, from a simple Google search, there's performance coaches, skills, coaches, career coaching, personal or life coaching, business coaching, executive coaching, and team coaching. And again, that was just the first few few in the Google search. So yeah, how can I how can I? How can a single coach? Or can a single coach be that person in all those areas? Or do you need a coach for

John Nieuwenburg  6:07  
each, it's both a good thing and a bad thing that just about anybody with can hang out a shingle and call themselves a coach, we would, as a profession do really well, if we adopted some of the practices that other professionals do. So I'm thinking about lawyers who get educated at university in that have to satisfy the professional bar, accountants the same thing, they go to university, and then they gotta get a set of articles. So we, in the coaching profession, don't have some kind of arm's length third party that, you know, confirms our capabilities. There are some organizations that kind of present themselves as the third party, you know, accreditation bodies, but the truth of it is, there isn't a professional association. Now, having said that, you know, if I make a different analogy, think about all the different kinds of law there are. So you get, you know, you get you pass University, again, you get to be called a lawyer, and then you, you know, pass the bar, and you can practice in so many different fields, there's, you know, the starting just with the distinction between being a solicitor and barrister, thinking about, you know, construction law, family law, mediation, contract law, there's so many different styles of lawyers, or different types of lawyers, which is akin to your question about, why are there so many different kinds of coaches, because there's so many different kinds of needs. I don't know that any single person can be all of those types of coaches that you've described. You know, generally, we're going to be better or more equipped in one of those areas than then in the other

Ed Mysogland  7:51  
when a business owner and I get approached on a regular basis. And not I don't know if that's a good thing, or a bad thing that someone wants to coach me in a variety of different ways. You know, how do you tell the good from the bad I know, in your, in your practice, you have, you have a complimentary session, but but the business owner is, you know, they want the benefit, but boy, they, they certainly don't want to burn the time trying to figure out whether or not this guy can or girl can can deliver on what they're, they claim that they can. So do you have a good way to, like quickly discern whether or not they're any good? Um,

John Nieuwenburg  8:31  
well, I think the most important thing you can do is do is look for third party endorsement. So, you know, go LinkedIn, are there people saying nice things about that person on LinkedIn? How many? And what is the quality of the testimonials that are on that person's website, that coaches website, you know, I used to give people references to the people in my website, testimonials, but you don't need to do that anymore. Google's your friend, all of these people are relatively easy to find. So as my advice there would be, you know, reach out to a few of the people that might be in your industry or are saying things that relate to the kinds of things you want to talk about and see for yourself if their experience of coaching is what you know, would serve you. So number one is do they have results? Do they have testimonials? Do they have some kind of accreditation? As I said earlier, it isn't necessary but it's kind of a demonstration that the person has taken some level of professional training and isn't you know, just in sort of roll out of cereal box so to speak. So I'd be looking for some form of accreditation.

Ed Mysogland  9:44  
So there's accrediting bodies, what I mean what is what is our what is training looks like for a coach.

John Nieuwenburg  9:51  
The best book or resource I could pointed to is a thing called co active coaching. So it's available on At Amazon, and it teaches the craft of coaching. And which as I've described to you, as soon as I think of it as the Socratic method, the truth of it is there's lots of people that have have the training or qualifications or capabilities of, of doing the work of the craft of coaching. The harder thing for most people is how to how to market yourself how to do a complimentary coaching session, how to sell the service of coaching, the for most, most of the people on the call, who are about to start a coaching practice, that's the much much more difficult of the to say, for most people.

Ed Mysogland  10:40  
Well, switching gears, so So I've had the opportunity, and it truly was a wonderful opportunity to be to be in a group coached by you. And one of the things that that I found fascinating was just how readily available and accessible information was to you. So So I'm curious to know, you know, do you see those same behaviors in similar situations, and being a being a coach is more of a study of, of human behavior, to reach, you know, the desired goals that rather than strategy and tactics? How do they all work together?

John Nieuwenburg  11:18  
Yeah. So you're asking about three different questions, I think. So number one, there's a thing called Strength Finders, Clifton Strengths finders, and they, they have a kind of List of 35 Typical strengths of an executive and you do a little test identifies what your top five out of the 35 are. And so one of the two of my top five, one is ideation. And the other one is collector. So ideation is this idea that you love ideas, and, and, and respond and thrive on on ideas and collection of courses, the idea of collecting, when I first got the StrengthsFinder, I was kind of confused by it, or at least uncertain about it, because I thought, gee, I've never collected, I didn't have a stamp collection or coin collection or something. But then I realized, oh, yeah, I collect ideas, I got a ton of ideas. Because when I see these, these things, they really stick for me, and I've got an organized way of, of, you know, collecting them into ways that I can access easily. You know, as things occur in a coaching session, which is, I think, part of what you were experiencing. The other thing I would say is, although, you know, we call it a complimentary coaching session, the sort of private word we'd use as a diagnostic. So when we go meet a sales business owner for the first time, we're actually going to diagnose their business. And from there, you know, stretching the metaphor here a little bit, provide a prognosis of what we're going to do as we go forward through time. So one of the things I've get really good feedback from many of my clients is I'm very good at diagnostic diagnosing, just in the same way, as a doctor might ask you a few questions and you know, do a bit of a rub, you know, or press or otherwise, do an assessment and then come at a diagnosis of what the condition is. And so I just happen to have that skill. And I say that because I've had that feedback from lots of people.

Ed Mysogland  13:22  
Yeah. Well, I and I agree. I mean, it it really is interesting. And And again, as a practitioner, it, I collect things do I know my skills? I don't believe that if it was listed, but every year if you go to LinkedIn, I have a EDS 2018 noteworthy notes and I collect quotes from and a lot of fun now, that's

John Nieuwenburg  13:51  
the third part is, you know, is it more about the behavior? That's the same from owner to owner? Or is it the business skills and tools and so forth? Well, what I would say is, the kind of work that I do with owners usually is around time team or money when it comes to the one I'm looking for. And so the kinds of things that an owner is usually saying around time as things like I've got too much to do not enough time to do it, or I can't get everything done. Or if I don't do it, I won't get done. Those are very common complaints. When it comes to Team nowadays with full employment, it's really hard to get really good team members to hire, recruit, get the culture you want, get people doing the work, the level you need. Those are very common kinds of challenges. And then around money, it's two sides of money. So the first which is you know, having a dashboard metrics, accounting KPIs in place to measure results in the business and the other side of money is I need more money, I need better sales and marketing. And so I know that that's what I'm listening for. When I meet a business owner, are they talking about Are things in those areas and if they are, then I know I can help. And if they aren't, well then not going to be a good fit for them. So there's very specific things that I'm looking for or expecting to hear when I meet a business owner for the first time. And, and typically, then it's about putting things into place. Silver Bullets as what we call them, you know, the the most common support systems that we put into place to help a business owner come to grips with their time tainment money.

Ed Mysogland  15:30  
Your clients are scattered throughout the world, right? I mean, we cracked we use Zoom, I mean, so how effective I guess I assume my generation, I'm sitting here saying, you know, how I prefer to be belly to belly? And I guess I guess it's, it's the same. We're just screen to screen. But I mean, how effective? Or do you know how effective it is to coach from afar.

John Nieuwenburg  15:53  
When I first started coaching, I was it was recommended to me that I do phone coaching, which meant, you know that our only contact would be over the phone after the initial meeting. Personally speaking, I kind of bought into what you're describing, and I prefer to meet people face to face. And so for the first 10 years of my practice, that's what I did. With the advent of zoom in particular, it's such a superior platform that I meet with around 24 clients a week, and all but to meet on Zoom. And so what I've learned is that Zoom is nearly as good as face to face. There have been cases where I've started with clients face to face, and we've graduated to zoom, as both parties become more comfortable with that. There's only one client that I have, who still prefers to meet face to face. And, you know, I'm okay with that. But what that means is they have to, you know, have to pay for my travel time. Um, you know, because there's an opportunity cost and otherwise, I could be beating with an with another client.

Ed Mysogland  17:12  
Well, and that, and that's fine. But I'll tell you, it was it was really interesting. And and so I've, you know, I've used GoToMeeting and zoom for meetings, but I've never in a coaching setting. And I think that that holds zoom skill set your command of the platform, I think, certainly did. Did did well, as far as being able to be coached. So. But boy, that was a, that was something I was just curious, I knew that you had you had referenced that you had clients around the world. And and, yeah, that's a that's awesome. Um, what are the signs that you need a coach? I mean, I know, you know, people end up stuck in the mud, and they're, they're spinning their wheels, but there becomes a point of, no, I don't have time for this. You know, it's not it's not the check is the easy part. It's the time that kills me. So yeah, how do I how do I know?

John Nieuwenburg  18:10  
The time available to be coached? Or to do the work? Is that Yeah, what you're saying is

Ed Mysogland  18:14  
an effective relationship. So yeah, I'm stuck in the mud, things aren't where they need to be for me. And yeah, and I just don't know which way to go.

John Nieuwenburg  18:23  
One of the most important things that a client typically gets in the first month or six weeks of coaching, is the answer or a feeling that they now have a light at the end of the tunnel. So, um, which is kind of what you've just addressed this guy to feel kind of stuck, I don't know which direction to go. And so just getting a sense of Oh, okay. Getting a sense of direction and a light at the end faith and hope that comes from that. That's typically an important part of what a client experiences in the early stages of coaching. I'm ready to talk to you about, you know, are you challenged in the areas of time and tainment money? If you're saying, What do you should you expect from a coach, let me offer you these are the five things that a coach ought to be giving you so number one is accountability. For the stuff you say you're gonna do. You know, no much no matter how much discipline or willpower you have, I know and you know, that we you don't have enough. In fact, none of us I don't have enough willpower either. And, but what I do know is when you hold yourself accountable to someone else, or put in systems are structured around that, that you will get more done, I have a coach as well. And that coach, as a result gets me to do things that I might not otherwise have agreed to do and gets me to do it more often because accountability works. So number one is an accountability to the stuff you say you're going to do. owners don't have bosses and yet all of us would benefit from having someone I wouldn't necessarily have it as a boss but that's someone that holds us accountable, accountable. Number two is a methodology a proven practice? Boy, I didn't make this up yesterday, this has worked for lots of people. And so this is a methodology that you know, you can trust. And the third, I would say, is efficiency because, you know, stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before you experienced this great teacher, but it's expensive and takes time. So, you know, why not LeapFrog? And then the fourth thing is behavior change. So for things to change, you have to change. And that means around your habits, behavior, and, and most importantly, what are your beliefs. And then finally, coaching is an investment. You know, no one's going to say that coaching was cheap. And so it's only going to make sense if you're getting a return on that investment. And that means that we're going to measure results, so that both of us can see that you're getting a return

Ed Mysogland  20:47  
with the signs, you know, and I think it's, I think it's called the Auschwitz effect, where you just get used to your, your surroundings, and, and if it becomes normal. So,

John Nieuwenburg  21:00  
I mean, the vernacular for that is the frog in the boiling water,

Ed Mysogland  21:04  
right? Yeah, exactly. So. So when you're the frog in the boiling water, you know, I and I don't know if there's, if there's a tripwire kind of kind of thing. And, you know, I've worked with so many people that if you only would have called me six months ago, a year, a year, we could have helped you. Yeah. So do you see any of those?

John Nieuwenburg  21:27  
Yeah, I do. And, you know, thinking of a couple of examples of people who are business owners, in one case, one owner told me this after we'd been working together for a while, but it was his wife who said to him in the trip wire, as you put it was that the wife said to him, Hey, look at your business is your mistress. And if you don't do something about that, I well. And so this guy was sleeping on the couch, you know, because he couldn't leave work. He was just so working 8090 hours a week, and he knew there was a better way, he just didn't know where to turn. And so he, the tripwire or the motivating factor was, was that someone outside of himself pointed out Tom, there, you know, you're, you're, you would have to be experiencing pain at some level, and discomfort, anxiety, stress, something that pushes you over and says, you know, I gotta get some help to get my way out of this. But there's more than one example I'm thinking of, of clients, whose wives said to them, you need help. I can see you're stressed, you're, you're anxious, you're working 24/7 Even if you're not at the office, you need someone to help you. Yeah. Well,

Ed Mysogland  22:41  
and again, the big thing, and what I'm trying to convey to our listeners is that, you know, how do how do you know in advance before you get to that point, and but if you get to that point, now, now, now, it's a crisis. Right. And, and that's, that's what I was saying is, Are there signs out there? You know, the road sign saying, you know, what, and I think you alluded to it already, as far as, you know, the lack of time and team

John Nieuwenburg  23:10  
and money, you know, yeah, so I'm just thinking, another example of someone I spoke to this morning, who has fact, hasn't yet started her practice, she's a physician. And she knows she needs help, because she doesn't know how to go about it. And so, you know, that's kind of the common thread, I guess, is that they know that things should be better, but don't know how to go about it. And, as I often say, information is cheap. Google is, you know, you can just google anything. But What's hard is execution or implementation. So as a coach, the value I create isn't about bringing, you know, information to the table. It's really about how to organize all of that so that you can actually execute on it. Well, speaking of

Ed Mysogland  23:54  
investment, one of the things I have always wanted to know is, have there been any studies that have calculated what the return on investment to a business owner by having a coach is?

John Nieuwenburg  24:06  
Yeah, so the only studies I've ever been able to see have more to do with executive coaching. And so the distinction there executive coaching is typically in, you know, fortune 1000 kinds of companies and you're doing leadership communication, those kinds of, you know, that kind of training. I work more particularly in the area of, you know, businesses that are roughly anywhere from about a million to five or 6 million. So, you know, business coaching is a little different than that. There's a trajectory in the early days, oh, let me start a different way. I guarantee to my clients that I will, they will deem that coaching has been worthwhile after 17 weeks, and I'll even tell you why. Then you define what success looks like. I will tell you you'll it's up to you. It is to be able to say yes, coaching has been I was worth while I've worked with 260 clients so far in the 15 years and not one of them's ever asked me about the guarantee, meaning after 17 weeks, if you deem that I haven't delivered on that promise, then I'll coach you for free until you you say it's true. Now, part of the reason I say that is because in the early going, and it can be as much as even 17 weeks, there hasn't yet been an obvious financial return. In other words, there isn't more profit or more sales on the bottom line. But many, many times the owner is feeling better about themselves, their lives, and their contribution, both as business owners and husbands and, and fathers and those soft values are hard to express an ROI. But all owners that I've worked with would would be able to say yes, I feel better, because I see a light at the end of the tunnel, I can see how I'm gonna get there. I'm available now, to be a partner to my wife, I'm able to go to my kids baseball game, and those, you know, have significant value for an owner, even if it isn't, you know, as tangible is a monetary result.

Ed Mysogland  26:13  
Out of curiosity, why 17 weeks? What what's the what's the magical above that number?

John Nieuwenburg  26:18  
Nothing much, except it's four months, then that's, you know, that's typically that's so one month past a quarter, one month year past, you know, a three year cycle or maybe three months cycle. Got it. So, speaking of

Ed Mysogland  26:36  
business value, and this is about creating, and preserving in the one day selling value, so what are the habits that that you've seen, that business owner has that increases their business value,

John Nieuwenburg  26:49  
not the kind of, you know, businesses that I work with? So again, these are in the range of a million or 500,000, up to five or six or 7 million? The mindset of most of the owners in that space is how can I get this done? And so they always think of themselves as everything has to be done by them. And the shift they'd have to take as to instead of saying, How can I get this done? It's how can this get done? So many, many, many business owners act as if they're the only air traffic controller at Chicago O'Hare? Right? And you can imagine how frantic that would be if there was only one air traffic control, in charge of everything that happened in the skies at O'Hare, it just be chaos, right?

Ed Mysogland  27:33  
Sometimes it feels like it though. Yeah, it

John Nieuwenburg  27:35  
does. And so if there's one thing, or if there's a bit of wisdom that I got from the E Myth, it's this systems, run your business, people run your systems, you lead your people. So if you act on those three things, then you will at the same time be creating value creating a business that's valuable to an acquire. So systems, run your business people run your systems, you lead your people, or put it another way, how can they get those French fries to taste the same whether it's in Hong Kong, Moscow, or your hometown, those fries are made by a 16 year old, and the parents of that 16 year old can't get him or her to clean their bedroom? How do they do that? They have great systems, they have policy, they have recipes, they have a procedure. So it doesn't, it isn't dependent on the person, it's dependent on executing the system. So as people come and go, the business thrives because the systems run the business, if it's the other way around, and people run your business as people come and go, your business falls and rises with the quality of the people you have. So systems run your business people run your systems, you lead your people and, you know, that gets back to the heart thing for many business owners is to learn how to lead, communicate, delegate and create the culture they want. Along those

Ed Mysogland  28:59  
same lines. Isidore Sharp had had something similar and I know the EOS guys always use this that systematize the predictable so you can humanize the exceptional.

John Nieuwenburg  29:11  
Yeah, that's that's another way of system is systematize the routine and humanize the exception is the way that I expressed that idea. And it's similar. I saw and 85 or 90% of what happens in a business ought to be systematized. And as a result, the owner then is only dealing with the supervising the work and the 10% of activity that's in the exceptional category. Instead of trying to manage 100% of everything that happens, you know, the back to my analogy of the only air traffic controller at O'Hare.

Ed Mysogland  29:44  
Yeah, well, I'll tell you it's it is a hard thing to do. I mean, it's hard not to delegate. At least initially. Yeah, I know. Everybody that I plow into has the same same thing. But once they do it, I mean they're, I mean they're off to the races. They They feel freedom that they haven't felt in a long time.

John Nieuwenburg  30:03  
Yeah, that's because most business owners don't know how, what they don't have the skill of delegation. So on one hand, what they do is confuse delegation with abdication. So they delegate, but what they really do is abdicate. And, and don't take any responsibility or suit, you know, don't do anything to ensure that it's being done at the levels they require. Yeah,

Ed Mysogland  30:26  
I think it's, I think it's a trust thing, too. For sure.

John Nieuwenburg  30:30  
So there's systems, there are ways that you can systematize delegation, there are there are protocols, there are ways that you can systematize and or delegate in such a way that you can trust it. Yeah. But you're right at the the most common reason preventing owners is they they feel like if they were to delegate that, you know, everything, the wheels that come off the wagon, right?

Ed Mysogland  30:55  
If you had to send a message to a business, or that you worked with 10 years ago, what would you tell that younger business owner today

John Nieuwenburg  31:04  
that one of my mentors, has a thing he does called thinking time. And what he does is he's got a red leather couch or a couch chair and in his office that he only uses for thinking time. So he's got a two hour slot. And as a week, he sits down with a yellow legal pad, and would write and have a think on a range of questions that he that he challenges himself with. And so one of them would be something like, what can I and only I do in the business? If I could get someone to do X, how much would my business grow so so in other words, it's being able to take a look at your business from a 10,000 or 50,000 foot level as if it's a arm's length, third party detach from you so much of so many of the owners that, that in the space I work with, relate to their business as if it's them, right, they see the business and them or there's a blur in the identity there. And so what I would say to most business owners is see it as a third party entity that operates in a way that it operates systematically. And as a result, you get to receive profits from it. Because the entity, the machine is running properly.

Ed Mysogland  32:30  
Yeah, I think and this, this goes right into the next question, which, which has to do with with legacy or lifestyle. And, you know, I think some business owners enjoyed the work of the work in the business hours that you work with it? Are you seeing more lifestyle, business owners or legacy or those that are trying to build legacies?

John Nieuwenburg  32:54  
Yeah, so what is pretty typical, as you know, an owner starts as that technician, they're doing they're doing they're, you know, they're the there's a mechanic, they're the machinists, they're the operator of the business, they're the medical professional. And the business grows and grows and grows until they get to a point where they feel like they've lost control. Because they're, you know, not capable of running. Most people. The thing that the answer your question is, you want to be in a position where you have a choice, where you can choose to have it as a legacy or a lifestyle, where you're free to have time and money freedom. So what that means is, you're free to spend your time in the fashion you wish, and have the money available to do that. And if that means you're expanding your business or opening a second plant or spending time on the beach, the power lies in the fact that you get to make the choice, and you have the money available to do that. And, you know, if it's that you just enjoy the work so much. Well, you know, God bless you go ahead and do that until you're 80. But at least the business is not dependent on you on a day to day basis. Yeah,

Ed Mysogland  34:03  
we alluded to this earlier, as far as as far as being being a coach and the process behind it. So so I know, we begin with a complimentary assessment. So take me the take me through the process from when this thing starts. You know, we know that there's a an assessment at the beginning. But does the coach go on forever? Or when? When does the coaching stop? So can you take me through that process?

John Nieuwenburg  34:30  
Yeah. So sometimes, the work I do with a client can be done in three or six months, and both parties feel like it's a good time to end the relationship or move on. Other clients I've had for and worked with steadily for five years. And so the average in my case is about 12 months. It starts with the diagnostic I have a platform called the five steps of freedom. You know, getting back to what we were talking about and it involves 22 silver bullets. So these are the most common strategies we use to deploy against time, time or money that helped the business get to the place where, as we said earlier, it's systematized and, and the people are running the systems and you lead your people. So the 22 Silver Bullets are designed to help that person do that in the business. Any of the relationships where that's gone beyond a couple years, typically, what happens at that level is it's more about coaching the person rather than the business, it's really about leadership skills, developing delegation skills, personal coaching on, you know, matters of those that are personal and unique, whether that's at home or, or other parts of, of that person's life. But it always starts on the premise of the business systems, tools and strategies, but ultimately, it leads to accountability and personal coaching.

Ed Mysogland  36:01  
So I want to be sensitive to time and I've been in, I've been on the receiving end of I've got to go now. So I want to be sensitive to our time allotment. So if you had one piece of advice that you would give our listeners that would have the most immediate impact on their business, what would it be,

John Nieuwenburg  36:20  
it's not selling, it's not doing more of what you sell is selling more of what you do. So that's a riddle. So again, many of the business owners that are technicians get so involved in that doing what they sell, that they don't pay enough or adequate attention to the selling what they do. And so they you know, the businesses fall in invariable cycle of they get busy, they're so busy delivering, you know, widgets, or whatever, or law or whatever, that they don't have enough time in their calendar to make sure the business has a robust, predictable flow of clients to support the revenue and profit plan. So have a revenue and profit plan supported by a tactical marketing plan that helps you deliver the business that you know the dollars you need to to run your business. So it's not doing more of what you sell, it's selling more of what you do.

Ed Mysogland  37:13  
So what's the best way that our listeners can connect with you?

John Nieuwenburg  37:17  
Well, I'm available on social LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter, W five coaching on Twitter, my website W five coaching.com Or by email John at W five coaching.com.

Ed Mysogland  37:29  
Okay, well, John, you know, what, truly, thank you so much for being so generous with your your time and experiences to help our listeners maximize their value. And I'll have everything that we talked about in the show notes, anything that's linkable. I'll do that also. So John, thank you so much for being a defender of business value.

John Nieuwenburg  37:51  
It's a pleasure. And it really is a pleasure. I think I mentioned that I'm hardwired to be a teacher. So that means I'm hardwired to want to pass along some of the lessons that I've picked up

Ed Mysogland  38:00  
over time. Awesome. Well, thanks again and cheers. My pleasure. Thanks.

John Nieuwenburg  38:05  
Cheers to you.