EP 93: How to Sell a Turf Business with Beth Berry

Ed Mysogland  0:20  
Today I had the opportunity to visit with one of my favorite people. And that's Beth Berry. That is, I don't even know how to describe her without saying she just totally kicks but she is she is one of those people that that is in an industry where she has her fingers on the pulse of what's going on. She knows so many people and everyone talks to her. And she's in for this episode, we're talking about turf, we're talking about the grass and topical topical treatments for it. And everything related to turf. I love visiting with her because she regardless of how much experience I might bring, to my ideal space, she just totally buries me when it comes to all of the Recon that she has in her space and coat together. I think we had

Ed Mysogland  1:21  
such a good conversation and it had so much value to it. And I I am willing to 90 episodes of this podcast. And I could only wish that each and every one had as much value as she and I brought today. So Beth is vice president of Turpan, an ornamental with advanced turf solutions based out of here in Indianapolis. And she's also

Ed Mysogland  1:53  
and you should be a subscriber to she's also has her own podcast

Ed Mysogland  1:59  
ahead of the curb, and she is every bit and more the person you should probably be listening to too, if you're in this industry, because she has such a wealth of knowledge. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Barry.

Ed Mysogland  2:17  
Beth Barry, welcome to the show. 

Beth Berry  2:19  
I'm so excited to be here today as well. I am excited to have you, you know before you came on i i did a probably a horrible job of of kind of introducing you and what your what you been where you came from and where you are now. But I guess it would probably be best if it came from you. So can you give just a brief overview on you know, just spent my entire life in the lawn care industry staffed by just for a minute while I was in college because I was working at the mall and I wanted my Friday and Saturday nights back. And so I I started as a customer service rep. And I was going to school to be a teacher and I went I don't really like kids add in so that wasn't worked out well for me. Does your kids know that? You don't like it? They know that they're well aware. But I do. I've spent 16 years at Scotts Miracle Gro eight years of real green software loving the technology stent and now I'm an advanced term solutions and fishers. And you also are podcast hosts. I do yes, I have a podcast on Terps up radio called ahead of the curve and we like to talk about technology product technology. And it's a lot of fun. You've joined me on there before I have and I will have a link in the show notes.

Ed Mysogland  3:40  
When you say turf, what all does turf mean in your world.

Beth Berry  3:47  
There's about eight categories. But chemical turf care is the area I've been involved in the longest. So if you think about true green or chem lawn, the folks that come out fertilize your lawn, it would include that but also landscape maintenance. So anybody that Mo's the durian down the street or landscape design build putting in a backyard kitchen, snow and ice melt irrigation, exterior pest control like mosquito that's a big area that we focus on. And then some actually go into there's about a 30% mix of those of us in the green industry that actually go inside the home for interior pest control as well. I got it.

Ed Mysogland  4:31  
So when when we last visited you know there's there's a lot that goes on in your industry and it's and I don't think there there is that level of activity in all industries, you know, because I think you have your micro businesses that then you get a little bit bigger and and the the micros Get, get eaten up a little bit by the the mid size and then you start turning into a bigger business I guess what I'm looking for is I wanted to see, you know, what's the kind of the state of the industry and the activity that's going on? Because I know we're coming to the end of the season. People are a lot of activity will start happening here in anticipation of 24. So I'm just trying to, to kind of gauge, you know, cost Campbell's up. I'm just wondering where we're, where are we today in in the industry,

Beth Berry  5:27  
it's like nobody in the green industry understands that the cost of capital is up. And because it's still a frenzied pace for acquisition and have those sub verticals in the green industry in the turf industry, the ones that are garnering the most attention are those with the recurring revenue. So if I'm doing a backyard kitchen for you, and I've got to go resell that $30,000 job each time, that's not as an attractive acquisition target as say, someone with two to $5 million worth of recurring revenue that I know is going to stay in the mix. And so there's our big events for the green industry are coming up in September in October, we'll have elevate in Dallas, and then equip and Louisville. And it's fascinating at the at the host hotels just to look at all the private equity activity in the lobbies, the the coffee shops and the bars of the big players that are out there talking to these companies.

Ed Mysogland  6:27  
And what are they talking about? I mean, when, when, because I know you've been privy to some of those conversations when when someone approaches you know, what, and this question from, you know, down the list, but, you know, what, what are they opening with? What are they? Are they just solely focused on buying revenue and contracts? Or what are they talking about?

Beth Berry  6:51  
Well, what do you think a real estate agent would say to you and Jen, if they stopped by your front door? They are cold calling? What do you

Ed Mysogland  7:01  
know, they're there? You know, are you interested in selling a house I get,

Beth Berry  7:04  
are you but not even that they'll say Do you know what this house is worth? What? The idea? You know, like they want you to start thinking about because if you bought the house 20 years ago for 130,000, and some blessed, it's worth 375,000 today. And so they want to start having the conversation about Do you even realize what this asset is worth? And so last year, the show a buddy of mine, Rob Palmer from Weed Pro, I bumped into him and and I said, Hey, there's a lot of private equity guys here. And he goes, Oh, well, my business is not for sale. But I've signed 12 NDAs. This week, just to talk about it. By the way, he sold very successfully not far after that. But imagine 10 months ago, we're at a trade show. And he's like I had no intention of selling, but someone's knocking on the door with this pile of money. And many in the green industry, for one reason that you noted the cost of capital feel like the market, maybe it's up here right now. So if I had any inkling, and maybe I don't have a lot of times, there's a legacy handoff, in the organization, but if my children or business partner aren't interested in taking this over, I should really sit back and consider what this is worth and at least sign the NDAs and begin to understand what the process is like. But this is where I had reached out to you originally. Because these guys, these friends of mine, these various do business guys. They don't understand m&a. So they'll sign NDAs and even some preliminary letters of interest, if you will, not understanding what some of the downstream impacts of that are. And I would say in the green industry, there aren't any trusted resources to really guide those sellers through the process. It's the buyers and these are the big private equity companies. And I'm not suggesting they're taking advantage of but I can tell you, my friends and I are not well versed in private equity and how that all works.

Ed Mysogland  9:13  
Now I understand and I do understand, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, is what is motivating the consolidation or why is private equity chasing that? And great question. And, and so you know, we see we see it, I just it's not as clear, you know, it Yeah, it's just not as clear. So what do you how do you theorize? Why, why they're chasing it?

Beth Berry  9:43  
I would say for the last 40 years in the industry, there's really only been one big player for a while it was Chem one and then it was true green Chem one when they merged and it's been true green ever since and for until 2019, TruGreen, was essentially the only buyer. So they were acquiring, and they could pretty much name their price. Because if you wanted out of the business, my buddy Jerry, Solon was going to be the one to buy it. And at whatever multiple they were paying at the time, and that depended on your geography and your retention, and they were the only player in 2019, it really started to pick up from some of the bigger private equity companies. And Wydo put out a study in conjunction with Principium. In 2019, talking about how it was really unnatural, that there was no number two lawn care company. So for a short while, well, 16 years, Scotts lawn service of which I was a founding member of that team. We were the number two but a very distant number two, if you will, and then TruGreen acquired us. But I think these private equity companies think if they can consolidate and mass, you should be able to compete against true Green, who really is considered the Walmart of the industry. Depending on what city you're in, they do a fantastic job, but they're the great value brand, if you will, can these private equity companies think with the right amount of acquisition, we can really go after true grain and be the number two player?

Ed Mysogland  11:22  
So do they really want to be number two? Or do they want number one to buy out? Number two, add some critical mass and then and then basically build themselves as the target for number two? That is?

Beth Berry  11:34  
That's a great question. So number one is owned by Clayton Dubey a rice and they've owned them for a very long time. And I think they were spinning off enough profit, they're publicly traded. And I think they were spinning off enough profit at the time that it was worth keeping. So they had hertz and Sally Beauty in their portfolio. But the word on the street is they're getting a little bit bored with TruGreen. And so it would not surprise me, for them to be spun off, and maybe others, others acquired with it.

Ed Mysogland  12:09  
So So what makes what makes a tough business? What makes it palatable, palatable from the standpoint of private equity committee? Because I'm certain everybody that's listening to this, whether they have 50,000 in revenue, or 50 million now. They think private equity is is their solution. So what what is that avatar?

Beth Berry  12:34  
restate that question. Yeah.

Ed Mysogland  12:37  
So if if I'm, so for the listeners, and they, you know, my listeners vary from your micro businesses to to your small, lower middle market businesses. They're probably listening. And we're and you and I are sitting here going? Yeah, there is a there's an opportunity for private equity to pick you up. And even even the smallest guy is sitting there going, Wow. You know, can you imagine if there's this pile of money that Beth just was talking about? Can you fathom how much they're willing to pay for, you know, my, you know, $50,000 in revenue, or you know what I mean? So, so I'm trying to figure out, what, what is it? And I know, you said it was recurring revenue, but is, but Where's where's there's a threshold in size, there has to be areas,

Beth Berry  13:32  
and it's now it's just, I'd say it's your million is million? Yeah. For most of the private equity companies that I talked to, that's the minimum target that they're looking for

Ed Mysogland  13:42  
2 million in revenue, or 2 million in EBIT a million

Beth Berry  13:47  
in revenue. I've seen a couple smaller ones acquired if strategically, they fit into a geographic area where they're looking for a target to grow.

Ed Mysogland  13:57  
So for a for a smaller outfits banding together and building or you know that there should be I in fact, I know that there will be a number of, of turf businesses that come on the market in the next six months, it always happened. I'd be curious to, to see what how, if someone could come along, buy three or four, bundle them together and then flip it into private equity and then that delta between what they paid and what private equity likely would pay. If they can, if they can, no profit from that sale. I just I just wonder, you know, now on the on making them targets. I mean, do the recurring revenue doesn't matter whether it's commercial or residential?

Beth Berry  14:51  
I would say residential is more attractive right now. Basically, it's tied to the commercial real estate market. So there's so much more volatility there. And we're seeing constrained maintenance budgets, even in those commercial properties that are still viable. The big companies, Yellowstone, they're out trying to acquire smaller companies as well. But that created quite a hiccup in the commercial space, just the volatility of real estate. But what makes the company's most attractive, we're finding two, two companies that just do a fantastic job. One is a good friend of mine, Mike Rybicki, a grasshopper and then written our custom ones, they were acquired by HCI principle, within the last couple of months, HCI principals based in Washington, DC, and they, they state that they're a lower middle market private equity firm, they've never been in the residential services space. So this is new to them, they've got like, aerospace, it's really an interesting portfolio about why they would pursue this, but the companies that they are targeting, have very high residential retention. And so we're talking standouts in this area, let's say the industry average is about 70%. Retention, on residential accounts. And the companies that they're acquiring are around 85, to 90%. Retention. Those companies also have lower service calls. So lower defect ratings, if you will. And they invest in people, they invest in programs and equipment. So it's a much higher level, than there's others that are going after really competing with TruGreen on the lower end, like even if they have a 70% retention rate, you know, maybe they'll fit into the value portfolio, but gd G T, C, R and HCI are the ones that are really going after the top tier companies.

Ed Mysogland  16:53  
Show when, as we as, as we talk about that the the one thing that sticks out, is does the is turfcare a disposable income expense, you know what I mean? And that's my first thing. And then there's, it's interesting that, you know, some of some of my, some of my neighbors are starting to retire. And, you know, the first thing that went was turf care, you know, I can do it. No, no, no, I'm what I'm, what I'm saying is you look at an aging population. Because my my industry research says, you know, it's it. Turf care is about time, it's not about your grass. And that's, that's the real, that's the real thing for me is that are the real telling thing for me that I'm looking at. You got, I'm just wondering if there's a little bit of a hiccup with with the with the folks that from, from the standpoint of I gotta tighten down because interest rates are high, my home equity loan is through the roof cuts on a variable rate. I worry about that. And then you have your aging, you know, the those folks that move from, you know, the working population into a fixed income situation. So I'm curious that that was that was the point of that is, you know, is anybody reading the tea leaves saying, oh, man, there may be a little bump speed bump coming up here. Now? Well, sounds like it.

Beth Berry  18:34  
I would say if I go back to 2008. Two things. One, if I go back to 2008 lawncare, is fairly recession proof. What we did find then at Scotts lawn service is that consumers would maybe buy the value program, they don't want to get kicked out of the neighborhood. They don't want a letter from the HOA, but they also weren't going to buy the deluxe program with nine treatments. And so a little bit of pullback. Certainly those big design build companies that are doing the $50,000 Pizza kitchens by your pool, those are starting to see a hit goal, Zillow, some of the big high end outdoor companies are just now starting to see some of that and even in chemical turf care, aeration overseeding some of the big ticket items are seeing a little bit of a pullback right now. But if you go to stop by Costco or Home Depot or Lowe's Ed and just look at what the cost of a bag of fertilizer is, and I sell it wholesale right so yeah. You can't do your lawn less expensively than what you could call true green or lawn pride to come do it in Indianapolis. And so and that's really been a difference lately is that you can have it done for about the same price or less and you don't have to store it so I worked at Scotts Miracle Gro for 16 years and when we first started the do it for you market The big box stores were coming after Scott saying We don't like this, you're going to cannibalize what we're selling in the big box stores with the do it for you. Business. And what we found is there were two segments of people, those who enjoy being out on the lawn and doing it themselves, even if it cost them $10 More they enjoy a Sunday or Saturday afternoon doing it knowing that they reap the rewards of that. And then there are those who like, never want to open a bag of fertilizer, and it's like water softener, salt, and it's too heavy. And but I will say what, what piqued my interest in the way you position this is baby boomers have been a tremendous segment of this industry. And they have been among the biggest spenders. And you're right, my baby boomer friends are retiring in mass. And maybe they're constricting the budget, or a lot of them are downsizing homes. They're moving to condos. And so that could have a downstream impact on it. What?

Ed Mysogland  20:59  
Oh, no, I don't know, as I as it took roughly five minutes to get the question. I was I was sitting there thinking that, you know, for me, it's it's about, like I said, it's about time those those of those of us that are in the hammer down, you know, period of your career. I don't want I don't want to mess with this. I I haven't I haven't yield yielded cutting my grass. Because you know, that's how I I listened to my my audiobooks. But as far as other turfcare, and stuff like that, I'm that that's not for me. And so I do believe that there's that time component, and you are right. I it was, I think I saw it was like $60 for it. In fact, the bag was more expensive than my treatment, my treatment is 57. And I would have needed, I think a bag and a half. So I mean, therein lies

Beth Berry  22:01  
the problem. You needed a bag and a third probably in the next time you needed this. And now all of a sudden you're storing chemicals in the garage. And that's where most people finally come back to Yeah, I think I'll just have them call and do it. Ya

Ed Mysogland  22:14  
know, and it's been great that, but I do I do wonder, and I and I share that. I share the that sentiment only from the standpoint of I, I fear, I fear for the small business owner that that someone says says that to them on the buy, I can't pay you because this is what's in the tea leaves. And I think I think by us working through that, that's not really a problem. You know, it there may be a short term hip cost of capital and, and you're going to have attrition, but I don't think it's going to to be more than the 30% you had originally mentioned. I just don't see that. So moving to deals. I know multiples are all all over, depending on who the buyer is, and, and private equity especially. Are you seeing it seems as though there's a big gap, like the big gap from the micro to the mid size, you know, so the targets there. And then from from from the private equity up, it's it's, you know, it's who's who can make the most attractive offer and and again, highest price may not be the best offer and all those all those kinds of things. So what from a value standpoint, what are you seeing in those in those little silos there?

Beth Berry  23:43  
What's been fascinating to me is not that the guys that have sold the business didn't read the fine print. But when they talk about the multiples, three, I got 3x revenue, well, you got 3x revenue, but 70% of it is of five year hold back or it has other assets tied to it. So one to 3x revenue, depending on how, how tenured the businesses, how big it is, what geographic area it's in, what's the competitive landscape, but where it gets interesting is how much of it gets paid out and how much of it gets rolled over. And that's been a tremendous variable. And then there's some big commercial landscape buyers that are paying EBITA. So you know, 22 times EBITA on some of the big companies and big cities has has not been uncommon, but it's when you get into the fine print which is what you're good at that you start to figure out okay, there was this much of a hold back and I've got to stay on as a manager because some of these guys just want to cut and run, like I'm done with this business, I want my money, oh, I have to stay on for four years and the business has to achieve these benchmarks or I'm not going to get the 3x.

Ed Mysogland  25:11  
And it's interesting you say that because because earnouts and holdbacks were predominantly a way to bridge value gap. Right. And that, and that is historically been the vehicle, the contingent payout. The funny thing these days, and this is this is one of the the, the nuances of, of doing deals is not only, I mean, it's not like you're getting a premium, that's just their mode of paying for it. So the holding period for the whole backer the earnout. I mean, it's not like, it's not like you're, you've received a bucket of money, you know, and, and, and you're able to deploy it, whether it's stock market or whatever, literally, the performance of your business is paying for their acquisition. And that, that to me, you know, especially for the more sophisticated buyers, whether we're talking to private equity or more of the corporate buyers. The bottom line is if you know what you say, you know, and you say, and you are going to be able to do what you say you're going to do. You shouldn't need a a vehicle that mitigates your risk that much, you know what I mean? Right, that's that, to me is is what is one of the challenges in the turf space is that I'm all about, look, we have to do something from, you know, as as it relates to attrition. You know, I get that, that if I come in, and I loot and for whatever reason you knew something that I didn't know, and I lose 50% of the revenue, there should be a value penalty for I get that. But as a just as a as a sole means to acquire? I don't I don't I don't think so. One of the one of the other, I think value value things or value structure that should come into play is those those folks that have idle loans. Idle loans are yeah, those are assumable. And we're seeing more and more people using that I mean, the cheapest money out there. I mean, it's three and a half percent 30 year money. And so, Sony right, I I share that only for the product, the listeners benefit is that, you know, when you're looking at, at different types of structures, especially when you're talking the sale of of these kinds of contracts, you know, there's there, okay, you you may there certainly needs to be enough downpayment, you know that to demonstrate commitment to the deal there. You can get some conventional financing, SBA financing, you can get this, this assumption of debt. And then then you have you know, how do you bridge the gap I again, I'm more of a value that earnout or Hoback mitigates an unknown. soldering. Those are, those are some of the things that I think we that would benefit the turf, folks who were saying that they aren't versed in m&a, one of the things is that it is a matter of risk, but to, you know, to what's the like, I'll be curious to know, what if anybody has done a study on? Did you get your earnout? Alright, did you get it? You know, that's a

Beth Berry  28:48  
great question. Along the lines of the financing, I gotta throw this and I talked to a guy as probably in May, does the deal things, it's a great deal. And they were going to be the platform to add other lawn and landscape companies to his platform, they were going to use his business name, this was in Florida, but they determined that the business was somewhat under capitalized and so in the fine print was part of your payout, the initial payout is going to be used as a line of credit. Just grows since and, I mean, he read it, but, you know, he thought he was going to be in control of that line of credit to so that was interesting.

Ed Mysogland  29:33  
Well, and and, and I don't want to Shame on him, because I feel for people like that, because I seen people preyed on the unsuspecting I mean, and I think I may have told you when I when I hung out with you earlier that you know, a typical buyer sees roughly 100 deals, so they have 100 reps looking at deals. That and this is our industry does some Some some work on, on, on just buyer activity. So roughly 100, you have 100 opportunities to look at the business, you can make seven offers to get one deal. So when that business owner met that business are so, so terribly outgunned when they start thinking about selling the end that's a perfect example that somebody there should have been a deal team around that guy. Yeah whether it's a broker, m&a attorney, accountant somebody with some deal experience gotta said yeah, that's just a typical yeah so anyway, that's, that's I'm sorry for him because you know that's a family behind that that deal you know and

Beth Berry  30:50  
yeah so that you think that is a typical I certainly had heard of that but

Ed Mysogland  30:57  
no, it's yeah it's not that's that's not a that's I haven't I've seen a number of deals where they recapitalize, you know, where you get out the proverbial second bite of the apple, you know, lets you throw in your, your 20% off throw in my 80% and this will be the the asset going forward. I, I would have to say 50% maybe work out the way it should. I mean, it just it depends on the business. It depends on, you know, when you know, your mom and pops that make that $2 million in, in revenue or $5 million. And, you know, it's just a family business, they don't necessarily have systems and all the things that private equity comes along and brings, they've made a totally kick butt business. And, and, but, but they aren't sophisticated. So when they go to exit it all of a sudden, the level of sophistication that comes down on top of them, just, you know, just buries them. And they may they they tend to make a bad deal or not make the best deal. You know what I mean? I do. So, I wanted to ask you, are you gonna We're just talking structures? Are you seeing any, anything that's standing out other than earnouts and holdbacks?

Beth Berry  32:35  
Besides one one interesting estrus is whether or not the founder stays in the leadership team. And in some cases, it's part and parcel to the deal happening and and others it's optional, and how long they stay and what their role is. That that's garnering a lot of attention right now. So

Ed Mysogland  32:59  
why? Why would why would that be the case? Why is it? Yeah, why would you need the owner? And, and here's what, here's why I'm asking. You're talking. You're talking topical treatments and things I don't I am the people that do my lawn? I mean, there's a guy that does I don't I don't have any affiliation, or, or no person, there's no personal goodwill with that guy in me, other than the guy shows up. And so why, why do I need? Why do I need that owner, if I'm just buying contracts,

Beth Berry  33:34  
it's the guy who does your lawn as a registered technician. And so if there's significant employee turnover, then they don't have enough registered technicians to go do the lawn. That's where the attrition starts. And so I think that is if the founder stays, we can preserve the culture and preserve the retention of employees, which is starting to get a little bit easier to get registered technicians. But the last three years, we are severely understaffed in the industry.

Ed Mysogland  34:05  
That's interesting. You say that, and you're not the first industry that I've heard that. But it is the first industry or the first time I have heard culture with with, with the turf, community and shame on shame on me. I mean, because and and again, I I think there is a you know, there's a predisposition that, you know, look, these guys are just labor guys that come in, they suit up, get their, you know, load up the truck, and away they go. And there's not much more. There's not much more to it. And I think that they're, what you're saying is that you know what, if you want to make your business attractive, you got to have some culture, you've got to have some stickiness to why somebody wants to work with you. And then how are we going to sell that to the next guy? I, yeah,

Beth Berry  35:01  
it's been interesting though, I had dinner with a buddy last month in Maryland. And I thought he's gonna be the worst employee of all time, because he hasn't had a boss his entire life. And he's kind of appreciating being part of something bigger, as he said, people who are smarter than me that I'm learning from. But it's a mixed bag of whether or not it works out when the founder sticks around.

Ed Mysogland  35:25  
You know, it's funny, most of the time, just about every deal here. And we've done about 2200 of them. And the funny thing is that but yeah, there's a there's a transition period, and we want the owner, we want the owner, we want the owner until the owner stays. And, and then it's like, yeah, I'm not certain we we totally eat you anymore. Yeah. And part of it has to do with sucking out the, you know, the, you know, the IP that that owner has, you know, of this business, but but a lot of the challenge comes to allegiance, you have a new owner. Yeah, who do you listen to the guy that you've been working with for 20 years, or this new guy that probably has some some knowledge of the industry, but no knowledge of their business? You know, and I think that that creates a little bit of a challenge.

Beth Berry  36:22  
But and I think it's interesting when you look at the brand equity that might be tied to that owner. So yeah, buddy of mine in Dayton, Ziller. Landscape, it's their last name. And some companies are specifically not building a brand around their name, because they know they want to sell it one day, and IT vendors dealer goes away is it really still dealers landscape, but when I was at Scotts lawn service, we did 158 acquisitions during a very short period of time. And we had a logo that was as old as Abraham Lincoln. And we thought Ed didn't matter, we were paying one and a half to three times revenue. And we would send the founder down the road with his check. And we'd put new logos on the tracks, and we just show up at your house next week. And you used to be served by Andrews lawn care, and now at Scotts lawn service. And they viewed that as a big corporate brand. And the acquisition integration strategy was not that great. And I'm not sure that some of these big private equity companies didn't learn from what we do. And so, you know, in order to run it on scale, a great example is experior. Green. They're a very fast growing company in the green industry. And they are led by practitioners in the industry and not by bank people. And so they do a great job, but they're going to change the name of the company to expire green, because that's how you run it on scale. So it's a delicate balance of how quickly you do that change the logos on the trucks. What do you tell the customer, what's the best of both worlds is if that founder retains some of the equity so that they can actually say we're still locally owned and operated, because that means a lot to us.

Ed Mysogland  38:14  
So you were talking about? And I just have a couple more questions that you were talking about, you know, you guys were paying between one and a half and three, what data what made someone pay a three? What would were there any particular attributes? So you can Yeah, you know, if it has this system, this

Beth Berry  38:31  
it was typically for us at Scott's where we wanted to be in a geographic area. So we knew if we had a greenfield start, where we just started mailing out direct mail and knocking on doors, how long it would take us to get going. Whereas if we did a decent acquisition, so we were looking to grow on Boston, Massachusetts, it's a great lawn care market. But we really needed a significant size to get started. The flywheel effect, if you will, was was much greater with an acquisition. So that's where we would pay 3x If we wanted to bolt on in Indianapolis where we had an established base. That's where you're looking at 1.5.

Ed Mysogland  39:11  
And you think it's, I have to suspect that it's probably still the case. But that yeah, that when you're buying market share, that's that's a premium. Yeah. All right. My My last question I asked everybody is, you know, if you had one piece of advice that you could give your, your your turf brethren, what what would it be to to have the greatest impact on their business that makes them saleable in the future?

Beth Berry  39:39  
Take care of the customer, and know that you're taking care of the customer. Because especially in our industry, most of the time you just said you you outsource it you don't know when that guy is at your lawn right? You don't know if he does the front lawn or the back lawn. So there's some technology aspects that we're working on with Steel green equipment right now so that after that turf guy visited your lawn, he would email you the invoice. And it would also show with GPS tracking exactly where he went on your lawn and that he went behind the barn. And that's the number one reason why we lose trust with customers. We're partnering with Mother Nature. So when we promise you a weed free lawn, we cannot add. But when you get weeds behind the barn, the first thing you're going to think is the guy's not going behind the barn, you didn't notice that, oh, there's actually a lot of concrete there. And so providing the service and following up with a lot of customer feedback and ensuring that you're taking care of the customer that builds trust, and that builds retention.

Ed Mysogland  40:47  
Great. That's a That's a good one. I didn't realize that there was that kind of technology coming. There's about to be, there's about to be nice. So what's the best way we can connect with you?

Beth Berry  40:59  
Well, I would love to connect with your listeners. I love what you do here. And I can tell you in the green industry, there's not a lot of folks like you that are out there educating green industry folks when they enter into the m&a process. So just some quick conversations you and I have had as the sides, they get to these shows or they answer the phone, they start signing NDAs and they're really looking at top line numbers. So I'm anxious to have you in our space. But if you want to get a hold of me, and I can connect you with that it's B Barry at Advanced turf.com. Or I'm intercept radio ahead of the curb with Beth Barry. Every Wednesday at 11am.

Ed Mysogland  41:41  
Beth Barry, I'm I know we had we had to cancel our first one and we were we're tentative on this one. I'm glad that your voice held up you say yeah,

Beth Berry  41:52  
I feel great.

Ed Mysogland  41:53  
It's well it is it is always great to see you and great to visit with you and and you're you're such a you're so much fun to talk to. So

Beth Berry  42:04  
thanks for what you bring to the industry. So keep doing what you're doing.