EP 83: How to Sell Trucking Companies with Spencer Tenney of the Tenney Group

Ed Mysogland  00:00
One of the most requested topics that I that we feel from our listeners is to talk about trucking and, and I went on a quest to find who's the authority in the trucking industry that can talk to me about, you know, just what it takes to sell a trucking company. And the fact the matter is, you just don't know how much Trucking is a part of everyday life. This is a $12 trillion industry that we're dealing with. And it affects me literally, everything that we do has some level of trucking somewhere. So I had the opportunity, I found the tiny group, and Spencer Tenny is, is the President and CEO of that organization. And he is really the authority in trucking. He's the second generation, his dad started the business. And he got into it as a dealmaker. And, truly, he educated me on so much. So many things about the trucking industry that I just didn't understand. He their their practices, is predominantly bigger than than the folks that we normally see. But the same, the same things that we talked about are applicable here. So he and and I think what you'll see and hear in the podcast is that the planning and how you approach succession is is I don't want to say the same. But there's nuances that will make a huge difference in the sale of a trucking company. And that's what's important when you find a deal maker. So and I would also be remiss is that Spencer also has his own podcast called the hot seat. And he certainly picked up a new subscriber. And I hope, I hope you'll especially those that have asked for this type of episode, I hope you enjoy it because it was I learned a lot. And I think you will too, especially when it comes to the nuances of making a great deal. So enjoy my conversation with Spencer 20 of the tenant group. Well, welcome to the show, Spencer.

Spencer Tenney  02:58
Good to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Ed Mysogland  03:01
Well, before he came on, I had a, I kind of gave a quick overview of you and from your bio and in about the attendee group, but I probably didn't do it justice. So if you don't mind, just take a couple minutes and talk about your m&a shop and what you're doing.

Spencer Tenney  03:20
I'm a third generation transportation guy, my dad drove a beer truck with a taxi and the Dallas back in the 50s in the 60s, and my dad swore he'd never get transportation, I swore I'd never get transportation. And here we are, you know, 50 years later advising on deals and so really gets started, my dad started advising on business sales and acquisitions back in 1973. And I joined up with him about 20 years ago. And I'd always watched him, you know, come alongside folks that literally make America move. They're the folks that are moving freight moving passengers. And I was always kind of fascinated by the folks building these businesses and what the role that my dad played in helping them kind of come at that last moment and help them you know, realize the American dream and exit and, you know, begin a whole new chapter in life. And so I went out and tried to do some other things, failed horribly in the music industry and did some other things. But ultimately trying to shake that, that that high of of helping business owners go to the next level and exit and so I teamed up with him, we worked together about 20 years. And then here we are today. I bought him out about five years ago. And that's what we do. We focus exclusively on primarily sell side advisory transportation logistics companies all across the United States. And the pocket that we focus on is kind of in that lower middle market of 20 to 300 million in annual revenue. And you know, right now we have about 19 sellside engagements that fit that profile and it's just a it's a privilege, doing what we do Uh, well,

Ed Mysogland  05:01
it, it isn't, you know, you got one of the best shops in the land. I mean, I when I when I invite people I'm we do we do we do some pretty good vetting on you know who's who's kind of the subject matter expert and your name kept coming up. So I'm, I'm really excited to visit about, you know, just just just what makes the your practice special and and I guess the and that kind of leads me to my first question is that trucking? There's different silos of trucking. Can you talk a little bit? Let's start there. Where? What is what is trucking? I know we got long haul and short haul. But there's there's more subsets sick. So yeah,

Spencer Tenney  05:42
I mean it. It's a whole universe in itself. I mean, you say just, you know, trucking logistics and but you know, when you speak about the global market, you're talking about a $12 trillion global logistics transportation logistics market, it's enormous. And so you start breaking that into the verticals like, I'll just name off just with what we represent right now. And we have the liquid bulk. We've got drybulk, we've got refrigerated trucking, you've got your traditional driving, you've got your flatbed, you've got drainage on the ports, you've got intermodal. And so like there's, there's a host and of course three PL and your brokers that have assetwise Like component of that, and then you have warehousing. So all these things that make the supply chain, you know, the greatest invention of humankind. I mean, like all those things working together, that's what we were.

Ed Mysogland  06:36
So, so when we when we have a, you know, an industry is as broad as trucking, you know, different areas tend to command higher values, not to not to imply that they don't have value, but it seems as though what seems to be the hottest area to be in right now.

Spencer Tenney  06:59
I think the main thing is, is, you know, what, where we can get a sense for that, as well as the highest demand for what types of companies are being acquired. When you have a market like this, where the freights pretty soft right now you look at all these in terms of economically what's happening the last few years. I mean, it was it was the Wild Wild West, and people are getting pretty much whatever they asked for to move freight. And that's, that's changed of the last six to nine months. And so in this environment, what buyers are looking for what types of companies have insulation from shifts within, you know, the economy and all different types of things, what happened, what, who has profits that are insulated from that. So that's where you see, you know, these specialized carriers, we did a deal with Kenan Advantage Group, they're one of the most prolific acquires in North American happened for 20 years. And, you know, because of all the things going on, they really wanted to get into the brokerage space, they didn't have any expertise in that, but they went out and hired, who was the best expert on the broker side in terms of trans loading. And, and, you know, dealing in the petro world as well. And, you know, so that was just, their whole deal is like, we want to acquire things that we know that we're not good at, we don't have an expertise, who's already established that niche expertise. And so I think those are the folks that, you know, alternatively, when you look at your traditional drive, and kind of commodity based type deals, like it's very harder for those companies to hold value in good and, you know, more challenging markets. So the folks that really have smaller, insulated niche markets, those are the people that are really sought after right now.

Ed Mysogland  08:39
Again, so what have you had you had talked about the last 1824 months, it was, it was good, everything was going great. And, and one of the the things that, in my research for this is that, you know, as an industry as a whole, it's only forecasted to grow, like only a point and a third, which to me is astounding, giving, given that, you know, so much manufacturing is coming coming back to the United States coupled with that the retail spending is expected to be higher, which clearly prompts a higher demand for, for, for for freight volume. So I'm kind of curious to know how, how that, you know what, I mean, what do you think of that? I mean, it seems to be

Spencer Tenney  09:26
conflicting. Well, I think if you look at it in whole, it's, it's more challenging to make sense of that. But when you kind of break it out into pieces, like what you're describing kind of that final mile e commerce component, I mean, you're talking about 20 to 30% year over year growth projected over the next three to five years. That's very different than, you know, some of your more commodity based some of the things that have direct exposure. You know, when you have major dips in the housing market, which affects construction and when you see Amazon and Walmart, layoff 1000s of employees Ways, you know, that affects consumer confidence. And that affects freight. And so I think so like, when you blend all that together, that's why you can always see that that 1%

Ed Mysogland  10:12
I see. I see So, so it's so it's a, it's, I don't wanna say misleading. But that number is totally misleading when you start looking into the various silos of freight. It is substantially different. I don't know,

Spencer Tenney  10:26
I just think it's income job, maybe not misleading. It's just an incomplete assessment of like, what actually happened? Yeah,

Ed Mysogland  10:33
yeah, that's a much better edge to what. So what are the what are the issues facing trucking today? I know that the people that that that everybody that comes on, it's it's a, it's a, it's an employee issue. So I'm assuming that that Trucking is not isn't any different. But I mean, what are these trends and, and challenges that we're facing?

Spencer Tenney  10:57
So actually, the American Transportation Research Institute led by Rebecca Brewster does a tremendous report each year in trucking in terms of the top 10 issues facing trucking, really, for the last three or four or five years, you know, the top two have been driver retention, and driver, recruiting. And but this last year, 2022, that was the first year that those have been surpassed in a couple of years, the number one was driver parking, there's only about one parking spot for about a let every 11 trucks on the road right now, it's a major crisis. You think about all of this all over the stress, when these truckers are trying to you know, they've been on the road for 10 hours, they gotta find a place to eat, shower, whatever else and sleep and they can't find anywhere to go. That just adds in compounds, the challenge of trying to retain and recruit drivers because of how stressful this job is. And so, you know, we joke about like, you need to thank a trucker for what they do, like, this is a major problem, because this is really affecting the morale in the, you know, just just the overall experience of being a trucker. So we got to get this thing fixed. But those top three issues are pretty major. And then right now, just in terms of being the soft freight market, it's very difficult for, you know, for people to earn the money, and when the rates on the overall trips are, you know, 15 20% down like they were 18 months ago. And so, so all those things, combined it in, I guess, lastly would just be overall, you know, increase in overall operating expense. So it's just very difficult to try and to grow. And that's kind of where we come in, because while we're seeing so much demand, even despite where we are with interest rates and economies, because the operating expenses are exploding, and the only way to offset that, in many cases is through some type of acquisition to offset those rising costs. So so those are, those are some major issues. And then lastly, I would probably add nuclear verdicts and just I just saw an article and transport topics that, again, confirm Trucking is the highest industry of all industries targeted for nuclear verdicts, these are these nine figure type legal lawsuits around injury or personal injury or something else in when you start having those types of claims just explodes the cost of insurance and really makes the industry a lot less fun.

Ed Mysogland  13:26
Yeah, I want to circle back to what you were saying, as far as there's only one space for every 11 drivers. It would, I mean, why is that? I mean, it seems as a crisis, I can totally understand what you're saying. But it would seem as though as many truckstops and truck related, you know, areas that at least we see, you know, going up and down. 65 It would seem that that's not a problem. So I guess I'm that one shocked me, I everything else you said totally made sense. But I was surprised that we didn't have sufficient, we didn't have sufficient spacing for them.

Spencer Tenney  14:09
Now, and I think that, you know, largely as a as a, it's not something widely known by the public, but it but it has a tremendous effect on the industry. And, and we've got to get I think that we're way behind on getting a solution around this. And it's one of the things just kind of compounded very quickly. I think part of that is because when they put the ELD mandates in place where you know, we have computer logs that tell you when the drivers have to get off the road, they can't fake it. So now they have to be they can't stretch the the limits and keep driving they have to stop and so I think that makes you know forces a lot of truckers trying to get to the same spots all the same time.

Ed Mysogland  14:56
I get it. Well, like I said it, it just You know, years ago, there was such a a big push to for people to buy. And, you know, the truck stopped were being consolidated. I just like said it just it just caught me by surprise that I not in a million years what I've thought that that would have been the one of the biggest challenges facing the industry is, especially with as much demand as there was to buy these truck stops. So interesting. The sale process on on a trucking company, I mean, does it how much different is it for your presale work? And then, you know, take and then executing the sale versus any normal actions and normal any other type of business? I mean, you've got financial statements, you got due diligence, you have all the all the criteria that you know, that that you have to do in order to facilitate a sale. I'm just kind of curious to know what differs in trucking.

Spencer Tenney  15:57
Yeah, I think that there's that the key things are being the the capex elements a huge portion and trying to understand, you know, fleet age, what type of, you know, maybe deferred capex could affect like, maybe they've gone up to a sale, and maybe they have not made the continued investments into their fleet. And so I think savvy buyers understand what to expect. And so from a preparation standpoint, what our job is to do, and I was like, Hey, we expect to take this to educated buyers who understand this industry, and we understand how they're going to scrutinize this. So So part of our preparation is to get way out in front of all that, and have an answer for all the things in terms of how have they handled their fleet and their maintenance, how's that gonna affect? Eve even in moving forward and in forecasting from a performance standpoint, but we also want to have a, you know, a compelling growth story, I think there's a lot of different things that, you know, in this industry is like, Hey, I could double my business. In, you know, overnight, if I had the drivers or if I had the equipment? Well, we need to make a defensible case, if that is, in fact true. And integrate that in in terms of some of the investment highlights of the deal. But the main thing is we just want that the overall performance to be defensible. And we also want to make sure that we fully understand what are the strengths and weaknesses of the business? And then based on what our understanding of the broader buyer universe specific to transportation logistics, where are the best synergistic marriages with those types of buyers? And then how do we customize our presentation specifically to those buyers in a way where they understand, hey, this is a one plus one equals three type scenario for this type of transaction. So I think that, you know, that I don't want to try to like make it something bigger than it's not. But those are a couple of the different nuances that we're very intentional about on the front end, we have to do capex, we have to check out safety, we have to look at the driver rosters to understand if there's going to be any safety concerns about transferability of drivers, because you got 300 drivers, and 100 of them aren't going to meet standard, you know, safety measures? Well, we're not going to get that deal. But we need to we need to know that on the front end.

Ed Mysogland  18:19
Yeah, one of a friend of mine up and up near Chicago, I mean, she has a she has trucking company, but it's, it's predominantly aggregate, you know, their, their dump trucks and different things like that. I mean, it right. And they and they, they're unionized, and they are, they are fighting all the time with with just just not only retention, but just sounds horrible. But the quality of the driver, I mean, that is no, there's no way around it. And I just I, I feel for because, you know, she's, she's getting to that, that age where, you know, she's probably going to start thinking about, you know, what, what was my last third of my life look like? And my goodness, you know, they're, they're fighting it, it's, it's a, it's a business full of landmines. And unfortunately, I'm not certain that you're going to be able to, to get I don't wanna say never get out from under it. I don't think she's going to be able to command the premium value given you know, how many I will

Spencer Tenney  19:25
say this, that there are certainly challenges I think union you know, that's That's it, that's a whole different animal. I don't even know if that's fair to compare that apples to apples. There's a reason why people don't want to buy, you know, union drivers or union driver basis when they're looking at trucking companies, or any type of company for that matter. But I do think that there's some phenomenal companies that have developed these cultures that really understand the mindset of the driver, how to communicate with them, how to honor them in terms of work that they're doing. And when you accomplish that these drivers will. I mean, they'll walk over coals for it. There they are. I mean, they will do the job do well. And it's an inspiring thing. But it all starts with culture. And I think that it from if the leadership hasn't laid that out, if they're not leading with how do we get the best drivers and treat them the best that we can possibly pay them as best as possibly we can, you know, given within reason, and treat them with the respect that they're not leading with that, and that's on the leadership. I mean, I think that that's kind of where, where I see it.

Ed Mysogland  20:35
Go, that's a good, that's a great point. And, and, again, regardless, regardless of whether it's union or non union type shops, you're right, I mean, it, it's a, you're right, it probably it's likely a failure of leadership. And, and the challenge is just that, I mean, you've seen you, we've all seen businesses where you can tell it's just a great place to work. And, and, and you're right. It's funny, you say that, because it doesn't matter what type of business culture, culture really, really does make a difference it especially when you're going to go through a process like this, that that will, I don't know if it adds value, or if it adds the more marketability. And maybe it may be both a little bit of both. Alright, you touch. I was gonna ask this later on in our conversation, but one of the questions was EBITA, you know, you were talking about capex, and it is always I mean, a monster battle. And I know you, you face it, do we win when I'm doing business valuation work? Anything asset intensive, especially in a trucking environment? You know, there, you just can't add all that depreciation. So I guess, is there when you look at it? How are you looking at depreciation because everybody's looking at that EBIT? Da multiples their value?

Spencer Tenney  22:12
I think what we try to do on the front of a process is we're trying to anticipate what does an educated buyer how are they going to look at this ongoing capex expense? And how is that going to influence the way that they approach valuation? And so you know, we're modeling that out on the on the front end, and we're trying to anticipate like, Okay, what, what had historically has been the capex commitment, maybe over the previous five years, and based on the growth track lead, like what's, what's this, what's, like, you know, for new equipment, and what's the replacement capex, but it's two very different things growth, CapEx versus replacement, capex, and so, so we're trying to look at that and making sure that we're keeping it consistent with what they've done. I think that that helps make a defensible case, when we're moving marketing the business, that's good. And then, in when we do that, when we split, when the buyer can see like, this is what's consistent, they may handle it differently, they may do everything different in terms of how they manage their fleet, as long as we have a defensible case, I mean, we can, you know, what we can do is we can remove the obstacles that would prevent someone from engaging and making it offer. And what I what I try to tell people is like, when we're talking with our clients is that whether it is, you know, a part of a very thoughtful process, or if it's just kind of, you know, engineered into the mindset of a buyer, there's like, Well, hey, given what I think it's going to be, this is where we're gonna, it's kind of baked into it. But what we want to make sure is that our clients understand that, whether they communicate it well or not, like, it's all a part of the way that the buyer thinks about the deal. And of course, and then we also demonstrate it from like, hey, as they're making these offers, we're showing them like, what is the in a traditional deal structure? Like, what is their net, net net? After debt service, after capex is added post transaction, we kind of walked them through the years one through five. So they're like, oh, wow, there's not a whole lot of cushion there. I understand kind of where they're coming from. So I'm going to push hard. But clearly, like, I can't push past this point. Because I wouldn't do that deal. Right? There's no light. Yeah, no, no, there's no way. So I think it just comes with educating and modeling using the tools that we have and developed to anticipate how buyers are going to think about it. And using the relationships we know in terms of how they manage their fleets. And so when we get to the point, we're having that discussion, we've got both the buyer and the cellar in a place where we're talking apples to apples, and then you know, we're in a good environment to try to get a meeting of the minds.

Ed Mysogland  24:56
Well, and you're right and and the funny thing is, it's hard It's hard to argue capex, I mean, it just is, it's a, it's a real, I mean, you have to have it. And, and, and it's funny that, you know, so often sellers are, you know, they, you know, they stop the capex, you know, and, and you probably see it regularly, you know, they kind of take their foot off the gas, no pun intended, and, and they start, you know, stop doing the things that they historically have done in anticipation that the buyer isn't going to, you know, it is just going to gloss over it, and then they don't understand when they get that value penalty for, you know, for the, for the cost to cure the, you know, the insufficiencies of the fleet. So, I'm with you there, I, I just, I just thought there was like a magic number. Yeah, like, you know, what we take 30% of the EBIT, da are the depreciation, and that, that's roughly about what where it should be. But I, I didn't think it was gonna be that easy.

Spencer Tenney  26:04
No, and honestly, like, some people say, like, hey, we just replaced a huge portion of our fleet. So really, there's gonna be no material CapEx for years one and two. But this is what it will start. And so like, so then we'll start modeling that out the same way, like, we just won't have anything hidden, you know, that p&l, and so maybe your three of that post transaction model. Either way, like, I think that the, when we're trying to do pre sale education, the main thing that we're trying to instill into all business owners in this space is like, this is not something that you can kind of work the system, like, you're not going to kind of sneak this one under the like, in like, Kumbaya is not going to notice it like so if you're dealing, if you're dealing with someone that doesn't understand it, you probably don't want to do a deal with that person. So that's a great point. And so, you know, what's best is is like, hey, you know, take care of your business, keep doing the things that you need to do, you're not going to outsmart the system. You know, an educated buyer is going to know that there's different cap x, and it will be accounted for in the way that they evaluate a business.

Ed Mysogland  27:15
I got the Okay, the, I wanted to ask you about owner operators versus, versus, you know, general employee, so, um, what, how does, how is that playing into, into everything? I mean, it's good, I

Spencer Tenney  27:34
think what happens is like, mostly, it's once you get to a certain level, they appreciate having some type of hybrid model of having both employee drivers and independent contractors. And what was interesting. During the recession, I mean, the rates, I mean, the amount of money that can be made in freight was just enormous. So you had just 1000s 1000s of drivers, employee drivers peel off and becoming the kind of independent contractors because they know they wanted a larger piece of this bigger pie. And then immediately, when the freight markets soften, they, you know, a huge surge of those folks coming back, because they want that employee model, they want the protection of the employee model, the benefits and everything else that comes with that. So what I see is that business owners that are serious about building and protecting business value, it just makes sense to have a little bit of a hybrid model that allows you to flex and to be a little bit more agile, given what's happening in the market. And so, so, so, mostly at this point, I mean, I would say, even like five to 10 years ago, some people had hard positions, about, you know, we are only independent contractors, or we are only employed model drivers. But that's just not realistic anymore. I mean, you got to move freight, and you gotta do whatever you can. So like to have every tool in your tool belt is pretty key right now to make sure that you're staying ahead of the pack.

Ed Mysogland  29:05
Well, I know some of the people that are going to be listening to this are sub 30 million. I know, that's kind of the floor for you guys. I mean, what did they do? I mean, I mean, is it more of a situation that, you know, look for succession? Or is there look for synergy? What, what what are the the smaller businesses to do? Yeah, I

Spencer Tenney  29:26
think this happens quite a bit. I think what the deal is, it's not that we can't, we're just like, we're just like trucking companies. We know like the trucking company knows that they can only haul something across the country, if they can meet costs and make profits. And so for us, it's the same thing like, like, you know, the conversations that I'll have with folks, is that we'll do everything that we can to help point them in the right direction. But what we don't want to do is inject ourselves into a process where becomes cost prohibitive, based off you know, some of these mark for smaller companies by the time you pay off all the equipment that from the deal Well, you know, maybe there's not a ton left for these owners. And so what we don't want to do is to, you know, compound that challenge by putting ourselves in our fixed expenses into that process. But usually what I do, we have tremendous resources of education, we want to make sure that we connect them with that will provide some guidance for folks to try to get a deal done directly with a buyer or we will refer them to folks within that local market that might have different types of networks in context, that might be a better fit for a smaller operator that, you know, may appeal to folks that maybe want to have a trucking company that wouldn't be necessarily be on a national network radar like us, but but maybe that might be a better, that's usually what we do. And that's what I would encourage use our education. And then we're happy to make recommendations if we know competent Business Brokers within that local market that can provide a different type of value and experience to get where they want to go.

Ed Mysogland  31:01
I get one quick question. I'm getting ready to bump up on for 10 My time, your your bet your hard stop, isn't it, sir. Okay, so I'm gonna mark this clip, I just interrupted. Alright, so since we're coming to the end, I guess one of the things, two questions, one, I wanted to ask you, or I was asked to ask you, you know, will we see, you know, the Tesla's of the, of the semis out on the road? And how far away is in? Is it going to make any difference? So that's my first question. Any thoughts

Spencer Tenney  31:43
on it? There's still a bit I mean, there's the technology is, is accelerating fast. It's inevitable that it's coming. I mean, some of that's already there. I mean, they're out there. But in terms of like, actually hadn't seen that as part of normalcy in terms of what happens in Friday. We're still a waste from that. But But I think that the, the developments are very exciting for what this means for the industry. And I'm excited to them. I mean, I have questions just like you in terms of what that's going to mean. But you know, what, you know, but what's interesting about as, as we're kind of where I see where we're at right now, we have a lot of different enhancements and some developments. But with each of those new developments creates more questions in terms of support infrastructure, how do we do these things? And so that there's an there's, there's an idea, and there's a desire to I think I'm broad desire to see electrification ASAP in this space, but in terms of the reality is, infrastructure wise, we got a long ways to go before we're going to be seeing that widespread.

Ed Mysogland  32:57
Amanda that? Well, what's what I asked us about every guest I've had on for the last 80 episodes, so what what is the one piece of advice you would give to, you know, these, these business owners that are that would have the most impact on on their business?

Spencer Tenney  33:15
You know, I think that I get really inspired from our clients, when they set out on this new adventure, once they exit, and they start doing new things. And so I think a lot of folks stay in the business too long, because they don't have a vision for that next chapter. And so what my advice is that you need to lock arms with people that have gone through the process before and learn from what they're doing. I've had clients that like they've used the money from their proceeds, they basically created their own family office, and now they're like, their own private equity group. I mean, they're investing in deals, and some have just done phenomenal things from from a charitable giving standpoint, you know, funding ministries in Africa and Haiti and, and doing all kinds of things that they never dreamed that they would be able to do. And so I think it's that inspiring that type of bold action, I think, is what allows somebody that's two years away from a sale to get focused and saying, like, I need to get my stuff together. So I can go experience what they're doing, because too many times and I'm sure you've experienced this, and it's just like they're like I'm done and had it but they didn't do any of the work to go maximize yourself, and they leave money on the table. So that's my recommendation is go lock arms with some people that you really see doing great things, following their exit, and learn from them. And in start developing that vision. And I think that number one, you'll be much more prepared, and you'll have a better exit. And you'll just, you know, be able to start this new chapter of life much sooner and on much firmer footing as well.

Ed Mysogland  34:56
That's fabulous advice. So So where? Where can people find you?

Spencer Tenney  35:03
That's place just our website, the Tinder group.com. But I would also follow us on LinkedIn or my personal or the tenant groups profile, we have tons of white papers, our podcasts in the hot seat, which we, you know, just kind of talk about transportation and m&a and all the things, just really fascinating guests. But those are those are really great places to kind of stay in tune with the work that we're doing.

Ed Mysogland  35:27
Got it? Well, I'll have all of that in the show notes and use and use seriously undersold your website because it truly does have so much content, so much educational opportunities. I mean, most of my questions came came, some of my questions came right off your website. So again, I am so grateful for the opportunity to visit within I know you don't have a lot of time but I'm I'm certainly grateful for how much you spent with us today. So thanks for joining me.

Spencer Tenney  35:59
thank you and let's let's figure out how to do some deals together down the road.