EP 47: How to Thrive in a Family Business with Tom Deans

Tom Deans  2:09  
Great to join you. Well,

Ed Mysogland  2:12  
my overview certainly did not do you justice. Can you tell the audience how you got into this, because every time I've seen you, it's such an interesting story about how you became one of the foremost thought leaders of family business. Well, and

Tom Deans  2:27  
the journey was, quite frankly, odd. I, I was born into a family business as my father, my grandfather and great grandfather, and and at 37, I joined our family businesses as president CEO, and ran that business for eight years as scdl and then sold it. And as I was driving out of our building down the road, looking in my rearview mirror for the one last time, I realized that we never successfully transition a business into the next generation, we always sell them. And I thought, You know what? I think I'm gonna write that book. It's gonna be a weird book, because every single book on family businesses that I read, said, Oh, no, you measure the success of a family business in in generations, you know, a fifth generation family business. Clearly more successful than a fourth and a fourth, well, clearly more successful, and third, and a second. And so here I was with never transitioned fully successfully to the next generation. And all the literature was saying that we were a failed family business, and I'm thinking, we have just sold our business for a 10 Multiple EBIT da all cash No, earnout. And I'm not feeling like a loser. In fact, this is feeling like the first day of my life. So what the hell is going on? Like, why are these books peddling this other message? And, and it occurred to me that business owners are turning to their most trusted advisors on this subject, on the subject of transition, succession planning, Exit Planning, call it what you want, they're turning to the most trusted advisor, which is the accountants and attorneys, and they're getting super biased perspective. What happens at what happens when a family business is sold? And you're the accountant or you're the attorney? What happens to you fill the file?

Ed Mysogland  4:21  
lose, you lose? Yep.

Tom Deans  4:23  
So there's the built in bias, you've got two really powerful and influential professions, by and large, saying to business owners, listen, what do you do in the state for years? Why would you sell this business? It's a beautiful business, you're never gonna get these return on your investment capital in your in your, you know, private investments in your stocks. And so what you need to do is you need to give this business to your children. I'm thinking, I gotta blow up this myth. I just gotta blow it up. Because as and as soon as I looked at the data, it was pretty clear. Only 30% of family businesses survive to the second generation and only 10% of that 30% make it to the third generation. So for the founders who are listening to this podcast, they've got a 3% chance of their grandchildren owning and operating their business.

Ed Mysogland  5:12  
Well, I had seen, go ahead crazy. Yeah. Well, I was crazy. Yeah, I had seen that there was a recent study that 82% of children don't want the family business. So that that led me to my question, you know, so why do you think there's this forced inter family transition? And do you think that's the reason for the low survivability rates?

Tom Deans  5:33  
Well, let me just go back that 82%, I would say that the other 80% are liars. I, I don't know anyone. I mean, I don't, I shouldn't say that. I know, very, very, very few family members next gents, who want to pay full market value for their parents business, that 80% They're hanging around, because they're waiting for someone to die they're waiting for to get a free business. So we create these economic incentives in our estate plans, either through trusts or in our wills, that basically said, If you hang around long enough, and this is where our family money is like, That's what entrepreneurs do, right? They hoard their personal net worth inside their business with no plan. So the kids are left thinking, Well, if that's where the family money is, and if I leave, I'm probably not going to get this piece. So you know what, I love this business. We create economic incentives, and we lure people in and we we retain family members and businesses that truly don't want to be there.

Ed Mysogland  6:38  
Yeah. And I'll tell you what, I've ran into a woman that I had done some work for, and she or for her father first, and I had done some, some value work. And we were talking about valuation. And he was, naturally he was disappointed in the value of his company. And I run into his daughter, probably three, four years later, and she goes, You did some work for my dad, would you redo the valuation that you did. And so I'm looking at it at her balance sheet. And oh, my gosh, her father sold her company or sold his company to her for four times what I told him it was worth so all of the earnings that company had, was getting eaten up and debt service and rent to him. I mean, I'll bet you she was working for at least 85% of all of the earnings, were going back to dad, and she had a 10 year note. And she was four years into it. And what she ended up doing was going back to her dad said, Look, I paid you fair market value. And he said, you know, what, if you don't pay me, I'm gonna sue you. And he she said, you know, here's the keys. And she put it down. And she opened another business just down the road. Yeah, just took everybody. And I ran into her, I don't know, probably three months ago. And I said, you know, did you ever reconcile with your debt? And she goes, I haven't spoke to him since I put the keys on his table. So there's another. And that that leads me to my question was, how many business owners are using their kids as their tyrant and amplifying the value in order to maintain the lifestyle?

Tom Deans  8:05  
Well, it's the oldest page in the playbook. It is assuming. I mean, there are a whole bunch of family members who are buying and overpaying. And then at the other end, there are there's just a huge number of businesses being gifted. But here's what happens in that gifting scenario. Mom and Dad retire from the family business and draw a salary while they while the kids are running the business. And eventually, you know, this gets old, right? Because we're not dying at 72. We're not dying at 82, we're dying at 92. You got children in their 60s waiting for their parents to die, in order to really run the business that the way the way they want to, because no one knows how to start the conversation around the the the logical, calm, rational, transparent, calm, they say calm, I really need to underline that one. transition of the equity. People leave it alone. And so there's a lot of exploit exploitation. There's a lot of kids who actually I've watched this one. I've watched parents literally give their business to their kids like the equity. And then a couple of years later, watch the children sell that full market value. And you want to watch a train wreck. You want to watch a family disintegrate? I mean, these are crazy scenarios, exploitation going both ways?

Ed Mysogland  9:28  
Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, one of the transactions that I was a part of that we saw, the son bought the father out, and let's just say that he was making $250,000. And the son came in just came in with more technical knowledge, the ability to run spreadsheets, the ability to do Monte Carlo simulations and all kinds of things like that. And he just added you know, basically a new engine to the car, and oh my gosh, I business too. took off, and his dad was really upset about it. And you know, basically, how do I get a piece of that? That was part of the potential I told you about Junior and junior stayed. And I said, you know, that's that's me. And unfortunately, I had to get back involved and have the conversation. He took the risk. That's his benefit, not yours. Yeah. And boy, and we see that a lot that gen two, so to speak, adds an awful lot to the business that gen one didn't have. So so how do you have that? How do you have that conversation where you were talking about calm and transparent? How do you even if I'm the if I'm gen one, how do I have that conversation with gen two? And I know, part of it has to do and I've heard you say it many times about gen two needs to invest in gen one. And that's how the transition should begin that it's an investment like any other that can you right?

Tom Deans  10:52  
So it's super counterintuitive, right? I'm really what I'm imploring in my book is for the next generation to risk their capital by their parents business at full market value, like no your cuts, no, no shortcuts, no discounts for the family. That point is crucial, we start discounting the value of the family business, we start creating economic incentives to keep people in businesses for all the wrong reasons. So and let me share my my story what these questions I have 12 questions in my book that that really are designed to start conversations inside families to find out whether or not a parent is a buyer in the house, do they have a son or daughter wants to risk their capital to buy the family business at full market value? Yes or no? That's all the book does. Full stop, right? So it doesn't In fact, it's very short on answers, but it's got 12 Wicked questions? Yep. Okay. Now, at the end of the day, this is all this is. These are not just kind of made up questions. My father asked me these questions. I was buying shares in my father's plastics, manufacturing business 12, seven years before I joined as an employee, and every 12 months, we'd sit down and we'd have an update in the boardroom, we'd have a succession planning update, he asked me these questions. And every year he asked me if I wanted to risk my capital with the view of acquiring control. And year after year, I said, Yes, and I went to the bank, I borrowed money and I bought shares, then he would issue a dividend, I'd take the dividend stream, I'd leverage that at the bank, along with more personal savings, and I buy more shares and more shares. After five years of buying shares at full market value. He put me on the board of directors. Two years later, he hired me as CEO. So think of it as I was a shareholder. At first, I was a director. Second, I was an employee, sir. Now, when I enter into that family business as CEO, do you think I'm thinking this is the Tom Dean's Legacy Project, all I got to do is kind of mail it in for I don't know, 20 years until our kids are old enough. And I can handle the business the same way and, you know, define ourselves as a plastics, manufacturing family, even the unborn will be making plastic five generation from now, like, not in our family, not in our family. That is my business to continue to risk my capital because I see a great opportunity for a return or not. And quite frankly, in 2002, for a whole bunch of reasons, like we just have limited amount of time. I changed my mind, I pivoted and said when my father asked me the question, do I want to buy more shares? I said no. And he said, No problem fact, he high fived me at the boardroom table. He said, I wouldn't buy that business either. That's a great answer. So let's get on with the business of selling it. There was no kind of oh my god, we've failed. We've we've lost our legacy. Oh, who are we now? That was just that's not the way we're wired. Going right back to my great grandfather in the hotel business, my grandfather and chemical manufacturing, plastics, manufacturing. I'm now a publisher. I've asked my two kids 26 and 24. If they want to buy my business, they've politely respectfully said, Guess what? No, they're doing things that they love, and they have access to family money to start the business that they're passionate about. So thank you that hotels, chemicals, plastics publishing, are we a failed family? I don't I don't think so. I think we're raising independent minded entrepreneurial risk, risk taking children, which is awesome. It's a different, it's a different definition of what a family business is. It's not a building with our name on it. A family business is a set of values. We are in business as a family to create capital and to transition it wisely.

Ed Mysogland  14:39  
I guess doesn't matter how big the businesses does your framework work regardless of how many commas you have in value?

Tom Deans  14:47  
The quick answer is no. In fact, what I would say is the older the firm and the bigger it is, the harder it falls and the faster it falls. So when I see I see big old family businesses, man, do I get nervous Do you know about 100 largest firms in America in the year? 1900? Do you know that only 16 of them were still in business in the year 2000. That's a ridiculous amount of wealth destruction in the modern economy. That's not a random list of 100 firms. That is the largest 100 firms 100 year later, only 16 are in business. People do not understand. Although maybe if they're watching the news, they'll starting to understand how temporary and fragile businesses are. There is businesses just don't last. And I think if there's one audacious idea in this book is that the really smart dynastic families understand when to start businesses, and they sure as hell know when to get out. And they never let the their emotions drive those big decisions. They don't define themselves by their businesses. They understand that they have a fundamental passion for business, a love of business, but they never fall in love with our business. Do you see the subtlety? In that comment? One letter, one word separates a big idea from a dangerous idea.

Ed Mysogland  16:10  
And one of the challenges that I see is that business owners so desperately want the kids to take the business over. And when I bring up the selfishness of that want? I mean, there's a look of how can you possibly say that? And I'm looking like you were talking about your kids. I mean, you didn't give them the option you want your kids to take your business over, but at the same time, it's a reflection of the risk that you took in the sacrifices that you took not necessarily you just want that to keep going. I mean, how does a business owner reconcile that? You know what, maybe Junior's not such a good idea for the business?

Tom Deans  16:50  
Well, first of all, your right is incredibly selfish, because the really behind that idea is that, again, that the most popular page in the playbook for succession planning for a business owner, right, it's hard to sell a business, but you can dodge that bullet. If you get your kids into the business, and then retire, pull salary to the day you die. That's your retirement plan, right. So they get they get to avoid, they get to avoid having to clean up their balance sheet to reconcile their inventory to, you know, all the shenanigans that go along with business owner. And so they get to dodge all that. And they just leave it they just leave their mess for someone else to clean up. And it's getting old. And quite frankly, a lot of because business owners are living a long time, kids when they move into their 50s. Like before they would get the business their parents would die in their 70s. They're in the 30s and 40s. They got they got time to actually run the business that they were they were they want to now we got business owners in their 90s. You've got business owners, second gen xers in their 60s and Antalya. They're just packing up and quitting at a total frustration, because they can't get the founder to talk about the transition of the shares. So they just give up they go belly.

Ed Mysogland  17:56  
If I'm a kid, how do I get mom and dad to start talking about? What is it that you want to do with the business? I know from a pre sale planning standpoint, most business owners I talked to dodge the idea that this business may not be mine in the future. So if I'm the kid, and I see how tight mom and dad have their hands wrapped around the business, how do I start having the conversation? You know, you need to look at this as an investment rather than your identity. So how do I start that conversation?

Tom Deans  18:25  
Well, I'm going to tell you, my answer is going to strike you as incredibly bizarre. But here it goes. 125 million American adults do not have a will. They don't have a well, they don't have a business succession plan. Half of all business owners in America don't have a will. If they don't have a will, they don't have an exit plan. And so a great place to start if and if you're a next gen working in your parents business that you don't own, and you've got siblings outside the business, even siblings in the business. And you don't know if your parents have a will. You're gonna be in a world of hurt, you got a 50% chance that you're looking at a train wreck. Because what happens when mom and dad die intestate, and they will have the time then the state of Iowa, Massachusetts, whatever the state they're in has a formula for dividing up the family business. And guess what? Now you're an equal partner with all your brothers and sisters in your parents business doesn't matter if you're the only one who's been working in the business. Your brothers and sisters have equal shares. What's that look like on Monday? Guess what? Guess what? The kids outside the business want really quick. As soon as the last parent dies, I'll give you a hint. It rhymes with funny

and funny, and they want it and so where do the kids go for the cash to pay out their brothers and sisters? No, you're right. They reach into the company for free cash flow. It's not there. The business fails. And then everyone reads the local newspaper knows Oh, man, look at that another, you know that next generation just didn't have the drive or the, or the passion for their parents the way their parents did. What a shame. All Next Gen Xers are losers. They're lazy spendthrifts, I'll tell you at that narrative drives me crazy. Because I'll tell you where the blame for that little transition lies. And dad? Yep.

Ed Mysogland  20:24  
To be honest with you, every time I've seen you speak, you start the conversation with raise your hand if you have a will. And I mean, you're exactly right that so many times that we get involved. I mean, that's exactly what what has happened. And and they just don't understand that just that little document. And it doesn't have to be complex. But it does have to be to be a roadmap on what happens. And one of the more fascinating things that I've heard you talk about is your fair and equal conversation. So when you have multiple family members, and you're constructing this roadmap to succession, how do you determine what's fair and equal?

Tom Deans  21:04  
Yeah, no, it's it's a great question. You're cutting right to the core of the issue. So just to go back to your first question, which is how can children kind of start this conversation will get at this whole transition issue, and, you know, kickstart the conversation. I'm a big fan, it's gonna sound bizarre, but I'm a big fan of next gen getting their own wills completed, and then giving their parents a copy of their will, which sounds bizarre, because your parenting your parent should be the other way around. I have a copy of my parents. Well, I don't know what the big deal is. But, but I think when kids share their wealth and say, Look, in the fullness of time, you know, nothing says we die in order. Here's my will, just so that, you know, and so often parents will reciprocate and, and it will start a conversation around the transition, not just for the business, but other family assets. It will also lead to and this is the major theme in my my book, wheeling wisdom is this real urgent need for families and business together to create family meetings, at least an annual family meeting where family gather and have these conversations, and get up that central question of fair and equal. So in our family, and I'm, I'm seeing this a lot now, I'm seeing a lot of parents who are looking at their business. And as they're moving into their 60s 70s and 80s. They're actually taking money out of the business, which they ought to do. I mean, to have 80% of your wealth wrapped up in one illiquid stock with no transition plan is insane. So they're pulling some of the wealth out of the family business. And in their family meeting, they're actually starting to trance, are you ready for this? This is beautiful. They're starting to transition cash to the next generation. And at that same moment, they're asking all the children in the business in the family, do you want to return that cash that we just gave you in exchange for shares in the family business based on proper third party valuation? Yes, or No? Head, follow the money. If the children want cash, and they don't like the business, they will take the cash, and they will deploy it somewhere else, maybe start their own business, maybe invested in a public stock market, whatever. But parents should pay attention to the answers. That's powerful information. It's powerful information. And it's the same $1 as $1. Whether it's $1, sitting, the retained earnings is pulled out as cash and then given to the kids as cash versus giving them $1 worth of equity. It's the same dollar. Right. But do you see how that conversation leads to more honest answers about people's ultimate commitment and passion to the business?

Ed Mysogland  23:45  
But one of the things that crops up is the competency of that next generation, that, you know, can you run the business the way I ran it? Can you do the things that I do? Do you have the same risk tolerances as I do? Even if you're going to reinvest, I guess, how does the assessment for both sides? How does mom and dad evaluate Jr? or the daughter? How does the kid evaluate whether or not they are, you know, a potential candidate to have the level of success that mom and dad did?

Tom Deans  24:16  
Yeah, so great question. And that is another question of one of the 12 questions in the book is while I was purchasing my father's business, and I was not quite a 50%, before I pivoted he just because I was buying the business. It never took the business off the market. In fact, I was always reminded that that company was still in play while I was a minority shareholder. He was always entertaining and could maintain other offers and entertain other offers. Absolutely. So that's a that's a key point. Because often when family members start to purchase their parents business 1538 percent at a time over over time. Often families stop thinking and think well, this is they're on a kind of a singular track for succession. And I'm like, not in our family. Remember I told you my father high fived me, right? Well, I figured out pretty quickly that he never stopped trying to sell the business while I was buying it. And he wasn't crushed by the news. He was like, Well, that's what people do they change their mind with investments, why wouldn't you change your mind that I changed my mind was actually something that he kind of looked at and was kind of kind of proud of, like, well, let's listen. Let's get this business cleaned up and sell it to a third party, we ended up selling it to a strategic buyer, who paid a much higher multiple. And out in the fullness of time, guess who's going to be the beneficiary of that transaction?

Ed Mysogland  25:48  
grandkids? Me? Yeah,

Tom Deans  25:50  
I have a copy of my parents will, I can see how the money in the fullness of time will transition to my brother and myself. Now, have you ever met anyone who has inherited cash and been disappointed?

Ed Mysogland  26:01  
No, not at all.

Tom Deans  26:04  
Oh, my God, I seriously, when you get the emotion out of this stuff, and you look at what a business is, it's an it's an instrument of wealth creation. It's not your pet. It's not your family. It's not your friend. It's not your community. It is an instrument of when it goes up in value, and it goes down in value. I tell business owners all the time, it's time to wake up wake up. Yeah, well, actually, well, I went when I'm doing my public speaking, I'm reminding business owners that their business is not their legacy. They may be very proud of what they've built. And they should, I mean, they should rightfully so. But no one is going to remember them for their business. Let me ask you a question that, and I already know the answer. Actually don't know the answer. But let me ask you the question. Who is the founder of Coca Cola? I have no idea. Well, don't feel bad. When I'm speaking in front of a, you know, 303,000 people. I can ask that question. And you know what, I get? Crickets. Nothing. Nada. Silent. No one knows. And no one even Google's it. No one gives a damn. Coca Cola, the third most valuable consumer brand in the world. And no one gives a damn who the founder was.

Ed Mysogland  27:15  
Yeah. But then the but the business are saying, You know what, that's Coca Cola. This is Joe's auto service that has five locations around in this case, Central Indiana. I mean, they're saying it's not relatable. And I'm saying here. Yeah, it really is. No one cares who Joe is. Now, you know? No, so one. So I wanted to ask you in dealing with like, for example, millennials, is there a different conversation between the different levels of age brackets? Are you seeing any different dynamics? There are? No,

Tom Deans  27:47  
I think actually, what I'm seeing is real common themes. If you look back 10 years, 30 years, 40 years, every generation wants something that is more intoxicating and valuable than money.

Ed Mysogland  28:02  
Oh, yeah. That's interesting. It's control

Tom Deans  28:05  
it's control is control of their own lives. And when we when a business founder infantilizes their children by controlling their livelihood, not for 10 years, but for 50 years. It's, it's twisted, and it's damaging, and it's pulling apart families from the inside out. And it's been that way forever. Nine out of 10 firms in America are family owned and controlled. This is a massive problem.

Ed Mysogland  28:36  
You know what, I never looked at it from a control standpoint. I mean, intuitively understand that, but from a warped way, you know, that you are indirectly whether it's intentional or unintentional controlling your kids that way. That's uh, yeah, I never looked at it that way. Thank you for that.

Tom Deans  28:53  
Oh, yeah. And it's and it's always held up as the opposite. Look at the gift that I'm giving my children look at the shortcut. Look at the opportunity. Look at the it's it's like all the balance sheet all the all the debt is on the children to be, you know, so much gratitude towards her parents for this wonderful opportunity. Hey, listen, if all we expect our children to be as some version of ourselves, we'd never have the Ford Motor Company. Guess what Henry Ford's father did, but who's a farmer? Oh, yeah. We'd never have Microsoft gets what gets what Bill Gates father did. This is a lawyer and Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs father ran a restaurant, we'd never have apple. It. That's what we think that we're giving these gracious gifts to our children. We're often killing the next generations authentic ambitions. It is not a gift. It's the opposite of a gift. We are robbing them of something truly more valuable, which is the opportunity to go off and struggle and be the people that are meant to be if it's not

Ed Mysogland  29:55  
going to the kids, but let me look at from a from a race In capital standpoint, a lot of business owners that that we talked to say, you know, I want my kid to be part of the business, but I'm going to convert it into an ESOP.

Tom Deans  30:09  
Good idea, bad idea, or not a big fan. I mean, it's a valid exit strategy, Aesop's are a valid exit strategy for for the person trying to get out of their business, if you think, but for the for the folks that are now in business, with a lot of their fellow employees. I mean, how did they get it? How do they get out? But right now, there's one thing that we was one thing that we know for sure. And that is, people like their business to live on, especially business owners who have taken wealth out of their business, and they have more, more surplus capital and they can spend, you can see how enticing the idea is that their businesses, their legacy, right, you can see that this is the thing that the greatest work of art, and the ESOP represent that like that really typifies that that mindset that the people who helped me create the wealth will now be owners of this business. Newsflash, owners risk capital, I'll tell you have a number of debates I've had with people in my audience and business owners, especially who gift stock and they say I challenge and I say, why are you doing that? And they go, Well, if my employees have equity in the business, they'll think and act like owner and I'm like, Dude, it is not that is not going to make it's, it's the debt. It's the risk that makes someone think and act like an owner.

Ed Mysogland  31:34  
Nice. Totally. What's your opinion on family offices? I'm seeing more and more family office kind of shepherding this whole idea. Is that helping or hurting?

Tom Deans  31:45  
Absolutely helping? Absolutely helping? And I'll tell you why. Because very few, very few American families make the leap from operating business to broadly held holding company. And but that's what that's what the really successful family businesses do. They get over the idea that they'd been shoemakers for 50 years. But really what they are is in the business of making money. And so what do they do? They they monetize a big chunk of that operating business, or all of it, and then they move to really, really hold a lot of different investments in a lot of different currencies across a lot of different asset classes. And boy, now you're on a trajectory for creating and sustaining dynastic wealth. And they're teaching the next gen xers on how to be investors, and how to take risks, and how to mitigate risks. So that's really the goal, right? It's not the goal to perpetuate one, one business, I don't believe

Ed Mysogland  32:45  
I agree with you. Well, if you had one piece of advice that you could give the listeners that would have the most impact on their business, what would it be,

Tom Deans  32:54  
get a will get a will. And when you get your will, and have a family meeting, actually, before you light, your will be great to have a family meeting and say Your mother and I need to update our wills or write a will. And before we do that, we'd like to have a really open, honest, respectful conversation about what you guys want and how you think the world should transition and how the business should transition and get into the issues that we've just talked about it and, and bring some clarity to this stuff. I do not understand why there's so much secrecy around estate planning. So that, you know, when people are grieving, they're going to find out what they get, like, I just don't understand that. It's so it's so counter to what I grew up with. In a family. I'm 58 years old. I've been to 53 consecutive family meetings. That's what we do. We meet, we talk we share. And we build plans together. I mean, isn't that why we're in business? To create and sustain and transition? Not just well, but family values and family relationships? Build families that work? Well, when we're gone? Isn't that the goal?

Ed Mysogland  34:01  
Amen. No. 100%. So what's the best way we can connect with you?

Tom Deans  34:06  
So I make it really easy. The title of my books are also on my website. So every family's business.com is my first book, the book on transitioning a family business and wheeling. wisdom.com is my sequel to that book, which is dealing with the transition of family meetings and the role of family. Family meetings, family wealth. So yeah, it's super easy. Yeah. I'll have I always like to make I always like to make it very clear. And I'm, I'm a speaker. I speak at a lot of industry conventions, but I am not a consultant. This really frees me up to be mildly opinionated. When you see you see and I'm not conflicted. I just love sharing a perspective. And if people disagree with me, I'm okay with that. I'm not running for office. I'm a thought leader and I love I love speaking but I really am not wired to want to work with individual families. Well,

Ed Mysogland  35:03  
you know what that like, each time I've seen you, I mean, you take away a few things that you hadn't thought about that start some meaningful conversations. And like I said, I've seen you several times. And certainly the the folks that I've worked with have had a direct benefit as a result of the some of the things that you've said, so. So thank you so much for that. So while I appreciate the kind words, thanks, yeah, you know, what, and, and again, for as far as this podcast, you know, thanks so much for being so generous with your time and experiences to help family business owners maximize value and more importantly, transfer the wealth. So again, thanks so much, and I look forward to are you going well, let me ask you. Do you have a third book coming? I'm not really certain what else you can add? But do you have what's next for you?

Tom Deans  35:49  
You know, I am so busy. I've done over 1000 paid speeches in 26 countries. I am so busy with these with these two books. Yeah. If there's a third book in it in me, it hasn't really revealed itself yet.

Ed Mysogland  36:03  
I got it. Well, you know what, thanks so much for your time. And like I told you at the beginning, it was a highlight for for me on this podcast to have you on so thanks so much. That was fun. Thank you.