EP 34: Your Business and the IRS Survival Guide with Sarah Holtrup

Sarah Holtrup  0:28  
thank you so much for having me on. 

Ed Mysogland  1:25  
Before we got on, I gave the audience a little overview about you and your company. But if you don't mind, can you tell us a little bit about the services that you're providing and how you're helping small business owners minimize the taxes?

Sarah Holtrup  1:38  
a Absolutely. I'm a CPA and a certified tax coach, and I help my clients in two ways for tax planning and tax resolution, and then tax resolution, I help my clients fix their tax debt problems and get compliance so they can stop worrying about the IRS and the State Department of Revenue. And with tax planning, I help my clients structure their activities, their income and their expenses to pay the least amount of tax. Well, it's ironic that we're recording this here in March and in doing the research about you, one of the your claims to fame is the tax savings that you do for small business owners. And I'm and we're talking you know, 20 to 40% was numbers thrown around, and I can guarantee every business owner wants to know how in the world you do that. So where are those areas? Well, you may not realize that you have a lot more control over how much you pay in tax than you might think. Because the tax code, it's actually a series of incentives for certain activities. And business ownership is one of those activities. And the more you understand about the provisions, the tax code, the better able you are to leverage opportunities to lower your tax bill. And the first question I'm always asked is, Can I do this, especially legal?

Absolutely. The ultra wealthy and fortune 500 companies have been using tax planning strategies for decades to reduce their taxes. And you can use the same process to lower your tax bill, can you give an example? I mean, as a taxpayer, I've been paying small, you know, the taxes associated with owning a small business for a long time. And, you know, and especially the guests that have come on, I mean, we talk about, there's a number of areas that are constantly coming up, and one is the tax two is the health care challenges, and three is people. So I mean, do you have anything that this year might be different for the small business owner, we're still coming out of this 2018 was the second year that you saw TCGA of tax reform, and there are still clarifications that are still coming through. And for small business owners. One big piece that we're looking at, and we'll talk a little bit more about this is entity structure and how you can best leverage that 20% pass through deduction? Or does it make sense to change your corporate entity type to be able to leverage that reduction in the corporate tax rate? So those are two areas that when we talk about tax planning overall, we're really saying, Are there ways that we can shift them

Ed Mysogland  0:00  
It's tax time. And it's that painful time where we look at how much we paid the federal and state government. And if you're like me, it is a painful process. Well, on today's show, I have Sarah holtrop. And she's from profitable insight. And what she does is she helps small business owners identify areas in their professional and personal landscape of where they can minimize tax. And I had a great conversation with her. And

So welcome to the show. Sarah,

Sarah Holtrup  1:24  
thank you so much for having me on.

to be able to push it into a lower tax bracket, and you can think of it this way, when I'm looking at income coming in? I either want to try to find opportunities to defer it, which means I'm going to pay tax. I'm not going to pay tax on it now. But I'll pay tax on it later. Or are there opportunities for me to be able to push it into a lower tax bracket? And one way that we can do that is by identifying deductions and expenses that can help push us down to a lower tax bracket. Because at if I can push them down from 37% tax bracket to a 24% tax bracket. That's a win all day long. Oh yeah.

Ed Mysogland  4:57  
And the funny thing is you When we deal with small business owners, you know, we're we're constantly reconstructing the income statement to show the level of earnings that company has. And most small business owners are doing everything they can to embed and shelter income so that they have a lower taxable income. But I think and a lot of the challenges that we experience is the forensic accounting that accompanies it. And so I always tell the the people that we work with that the more profit you can show the, the greater the chance that you're going to survive the due diligence, the higher multiple you'll probably receive, because, because, again, there's not a question to the integrity of the financial statements. So that's kind of where you come in with tax strategies that can maximize that that net income. But I think if I'm a business owner, and I hear, you need to change structures, I mean, tell me how hard is is doing that.

Sarah Holtrup  6:00  
What you have to remember is the entity or structure that you use for your business is so important, because it directly impacts the amount of tax that you're going to pay. But I think what's forgotten is different tax strategies favor different entity types. So it's important that the entity form that you choose aligns with the tax strategies that are the best fit for you and your situation. Because when we look at the choice of entity, we always need to look at the state where you're operating your business or where you own property first, because the states aren't uniform in tax treatment, or in the asset protection that they offer. And you know, the one piece that I'm asked, it's I've been I've been operating this way for for decades, that entity type that you've had in place may have been really effective for a long time. But in the light of tax reform, or changes in your business or changes in the environment, it may not really serve you the same way. So it's always good to evaluate the structure that you're using. You know, I caution everyone before you go out and go Convert your C Corp to an S corp to take advantage of the 20% pass through. Or if you want to convert your S corp to a C Corp to take advantage of the lower corporate tax rate, or even to incorporate, it's important that you've worked with your tax advisor to ensure that the best choice for your business long term, I recently had a client who made an entity change based on the recommendation from another advisor. And it seemed like a whole lot of federal tax. But it created a huge state tax bill. So it wiped out any really any that federal tax savings.

Ed Mysogland  7:33  
For example, most of the companies that I see are either SS or LLC. And the older companies are all SS. And the newer companies are all LLC is and which is what Yeah, which is which is funny and and I'm reasonably certain that there wasn't a whole lot of thought that went into the entity selection. So but as far as converting is that a large undertaking or not?

Sarah Holtrup  8:01  
Not not necessarily I, the important piece before you confirm, you need to fully, you really just need to fully understand the ramifications with it. And you need to understand the numbers. But the biggest driver, you need to use the right numbers in your analysis. Otherwise, you can have some ugly consequences. But if you go about it the right way, absolutely converting really makes sense. And let me give you an example. If I have an S corp owner to fringe benefits are really an important piece of what they need for their business and the driver on escort may not be the appropriate entity, C Corp may be a better fit for them. And at the end of the day, May overall find that that will help them lower their tax bill and really maximize the money, the amount of money that they're bringing home, as well as the amount that they could reinvest in their business. So if I that's a reason why it's important to look at the analysis on a case by case basis. Because we need to understand what what are the pieces that are important to you? What could your what are the the factors that really could benefit you as a business owner, and that are those that will help you grow your business and the best way?

Ed Mysogland  9:21  
So one of the things that always crops up is it seems to me that with business owners, it's the devil you know versus the devil you don't even though I may be getting punished from a tax standpoint, or substitute whatever you want for for taxes. It seems as though if this is the way we've done it, at least we know that this is how it is versus you know, I just I don't want to go do something I don't know about I don't want to change even if the benefit is superior, which to me is kind of counterintuitive. And so I guess that my question I wanted you to address is how do I eat into this tax planning strategy that that you offer. I mean, what are what do i What do I do? How do how does that not become painful in conversion, or not conversion in, you know, in selecting going in a different path than I'm accustomed to,

Sarah Holtrup  10:18  
you've got a few pieces to it as part of an overall analysis of where we started, really from your tax returns, and we and so we've looked at the returns and see how given trading pieces, and then their conversations of tell me about where your income is coming from, tell me about your expenses, tell me about your activities. And tell me about your activities outside of this business, and I'm looking at so we're really trying to look at everything in very much a holistic piece. And from there, we can look and say, by doing tax planning, I think that we can save you X amount each year in federal tax, and extra Mountain State tax. And, you know, we're doing a high level overview, and many of the actual strategies that we're going to use, will dig into once we start getting into those weeds that are tied in for the tax planning process. It's not a it's not a one time piece. This is really a, I would say over a period of at least a year. And it's an ongoing process. And what we the biggest piece that I see from my clients is it's a mindset shift they have gone from taxes are an unfortunate consequence of earning more money, my business is successful, therefore I need to pay, I'm going to pay more in tax. And that isn't necessarily true. And so it's shifting that mindset to start operating in more tax smart way. So when you say how complicated is it, it's complicated, it's like everything, it's going to be a change. But this is going to be a welcome change, because you'll find that the rest of the process as you're going through, it's all positive benefits, is putting you in a position that you've got more accountability, you have better control of your numbers, and a better understanding of what's happening to them. And there's that second piece of that tax savings, what does it do? You can for them, instead of paying unnecessary taxes, you're either reinvesting in that new business, or you're helping to build your family's financial future. So if you keep your eyes on the prize, of it's gonna be a little bit painful. But look at what you're gonna get in the end. It's absolutely worth it. I have not talked to one tax planning clients since regretted their decision,

Ed Mysogland  12:34  
when, you know, the common theme that we hear is, you know, you can be gray and in your deductions just don't go outside of the gray area. And the problem, you know, I shouldn't say the problem, I think the challenge that that business owners have is, if the IRS shows up at my doorstep, what happens and I know you, you do a lot of that work of, of advocating your for your clients position to the IRS. So what happens when we deploy your strategy, I get a knock on the door that says I we need to talk about this, what does that mean? And what should I do.

Sarah Holtrup  13:13  
And when you talk about tax mistakes, the biggest mistakes that I see are either your take deductions that you shouldn't worry, you don't take deductions that you're entitled to, because you're scared that it's either going to trigger an audit or you're taking too many deductions, because she shouldn't let the fear of the IRS keep you from claiming legitimate deduction. Because when you do that you're leaving money on the table. But again, it is part of the tax planning process. That's why it's important to have an advisor who's going to work with you to identify the strategies that your business may be able to take. And as part of that practice, are going to work with you to understand the requirements, that will you understand what you need to do to make sure that you can take this deduction. And, you know, my tax planning actually protects you in the event of an audit. It could when you know what you can and cannot do. You design your activities, so that you're following the letter of the law and your compliance. And in that case, you can leverage every deduction or credit, seek to pay the least amount of tax. Now, in that example of what you gave, say enter the IRS comes knocking at your door. The first comment I make when you get that notice in the mail is don't panic. No it's don't panic. But don't ignore that notice. And what I tell my clients, when you get a notice, you're not responding to this. Notice, I'm responding to this notice, you know, you want your tax advisor to handle this correspondence. So much of what's happening to the IRS is automated these days and you have a lot of data that's coming through and a lot of it's a matching. We reported this on your return in the 1099 aren't matching. And some of these are fairly simple, but some are a bit more complicated. So that's why it's important to have that I didn't with you as you're responding to this.

Ed Mysogland  15:02  
So when you do that, what are the red flags or the mistakes that you see, I know, you just said that there's a matching error and I and believe it or not, on, on our 1099, I have received that notice where the mistakes are, what are the other areas that you see that the IRS shows up at your door,

Sarah Holtrup  15:22  
the ones that you're going to see is the largest one, we didn't report all your income, you know, either I had W twos and tenon Uniteds and didn't include those on my return. Those are, you're gonna get flagged for that. And the other part is, is that in just kind of a matter of principle, always report all your income, always report all your income. And that's probably the largest one that we're gonna see some of the deductions, you know, sadly, there's a lot of, I think, incorrect information out there floating around, I can take this deduction, or I can take that deduction, make sure that these aren't just urban myth, that there's actually some legitimacy and that deduction that you're taking. And, you know, off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a couple that I was told that I could take. And it pieces like, this is kind of a very basic example that I have a car, I have it wrapped. Therefore, it's a mobile advertisement and all of that, that entire vehicles deductible. So crap,

Ed Mysogland  16:29  
that is so funny, you're saying this, I keep going, because this showed up about 30 days ago, keep going.

Sarah Holtrup  16:38  
In that one where it's totally incorrect, because what we're always looking at what was the actual views of that vehicle, I need to be driving either to a client location, or from an administrative office to a home office, it's the intent of that deductible mileage, just having a billboard on my vehicle does not automatically make that expense deductible. So those are some things out there. Or, you know, what has happened after TCGA? A lot of the entertainment deductions were so many, so many of them were slashed. So there's still that misunderstanding that, okay, well, if I show up somewhere in branded apparel at a baseball game that makes it automatically deductible, you know, so if we just need to go past that, you know, one thing I do remind my clients, there are still many great available deductions that are out there. Don't waste your effort on the stupid ones that are gonna get you in trouble. You know, what is it that expression, you know, you play stupid games, win stupid prizes. It's one where just make sure everything you're doing, it's a lot, and you will be fine. But like what I said, there's so many opportunities for great deductions, you don't have to get into the gray areas.

Ed Mysogland  17:56  
One of the things that and being a small business owner I bumped into also is that come January, I'm now starting to scrambled to compile everything that that I need in order to do the taxes. You know, life gets in the way. And certainly for small business owners, there's a lot going on. I mean, you can't just take your foot off the gas in order to compile all your taxes. And I know, in our pre record conversation, you were talking about the organizational component that makes your services it amplifies and makes it easier to do so can you talk a little bit about the guidance that you give business owners in order to make the tax planning service? Are the tax planning easier?

Sarah Holtrup  18:39  
Absolutely. What you like business owners, we are required to operate in a businesslike manner, meaning we have to keep accurate books and records. We're supposed to keep contemporaneous records. And we're supposed to be following corporate formalities versus to maintain documentation to be able to support our businesses expensive. And if you don't, not only can you get into trouble with the IRS, but you can unknowingly expose yourself to risk. Or you can not only just with the IRS, but you can also potentially, here's your corporate veil, where your corporate protection is stripped and you become personally liable. So it's as though what you've developed to protect yourself by incorporating because all gone for nothing. Now, many business owners don't fully understand their responsibilities. They may have had an attorney or they used an online legal service to set up their corporation or their LLC. But they didn't really understand what it meant and what they need to do. And what I find through the tax planning process, is my clients become a lot more organized because we walk through some of this this maladies to help them understand. You can do this and you can't do that. Let me give an example. I can't tell you the number of times that I've run through a client's records where they have personally expenses, burning through their corporate, which is a no no. Not only are you required to keep separate books and records, but the other part is, if you had a plaintiff's attorney who started looking through their records and saw that you have personal expenses filtering through your corporate business, you're opening yourself up for an opportunity for them to say, we should, this corporate veil should be pierced and that this corporate protection should be taken away. So, as part of the practice that I've walked through, we, that's one step up, okay, let's separate these out. You need to understand what's personal and what's, what's personal, personal, we keep separately, and what's, what business expenses are right there. And I do talk to some clients who said, you know, I didn't know if I could or not, there are times where it's like, we put it through hoping the CPA would notice. And there shouldn't be an adversarial relationship with your tax advisor, it shouldn't be oh, let me see what I can sneak through it should be, we need to be very deliberate about what we're putting through. And this should also be an ongoing, ongoing process. That way, at the end of the year, you're not scrambling, it should be a situation where every month you've got good p&l Every month, you know how much you're making. And if you're an S corp owner, we have an idea of how much money did I take each month. And those are so important. And that part of that tax Mark process, you know, and really, as you start thinking that way, it opens up even more opportunities for your business to pay less tax. Yeah, and I will tell you, I mean, when we start working through, we typically find 1000s of dollars in deductions that have been missed, simply by getting organized.

Ed Mysogland  21:50  
And I look at a lot of financial statements, and I and a lot of the the business owners in lieu of tax planning, kind of do their own sheltering, and I am forced to reconstruct the financial statements. And if I'm a business owner now and I'm listening to you, I'm like, Am I really gonna find that level of tax savings? By not embedding all of my my wife's or my spouse's car that I'm running through the business? Am I really gonna find that level of benefit? I think that's the telling question. And what do you think you think you can find that level that it offsets the business owner running all their personal expenses? I shouldn't say all there, but taking liberal advantage of personal expenses.

Sarah Holtrup  22:35  
Absolutely. I think there's a piece and, and just one thing to keep in mind, which automation, that the IRS, there's so much that's happening really behind the scene, it becomes there's kind of a new level of compliance that's required, and every business owner needs to be aware of it. And even though you've probably heard, you know, the IRS resources are stretched, it means that you're going to have more automated notifications, for instance, that 1099 That didn't match up. But you're also going to have a lot more correspondence on it, whether they're focusing on one particular category where you're seeing your meals and expenses were disproportionate in comparison to others in your segments. And they're going to ask for documentation to support that. So we want I want my clients to claim every legitimate deduction, absolutely. But I don't want you to get in trouble by tossing things on there that, first of all, aren't legitimate, and second of all, are going to throw things out of compliance. You know, I tell my, my clients, we are setting everything up to a point where if it is audited, we're prepared. I mean, I never want it to happen, of course. But if there's a question, we're totally prepared and ready to respond. We want your records to be in that kind of condition. And but there's what you're asking, when you're talking about tax planning, I think that out there, there's the common buzzword of here's a different strategy. And, you know, as much it's a well meaning and well intentioned, I think some of how they should be used or lost in the translation. So that's why it really is important that you work with an advisor who understands the code, and who can say, here's what we need to do to apply it and and keep you out of trouble. Because what I'm, the typical response that I hear is my tax preparer, and tax preparers really, particularly and in this season right now. They are so focused on preparing returns, they really don't have the time and the prep, it really doesn't encompass tax planning. They may be able to give you a couple pieces of advice here and there. But that's not planning and planning is an overall shift and looking at everything you have to say, what can we re strategize, readjust, and find other deductions, credits that you can use to Do it. And usually what will you find? I mean, it's an investment, but usually Wi Fi is a fraction of what you're going to see in tax.

Ed Mysogland  25:09  
Yeah, that was gonna, I was getting ready to ask you that, that whether, you know, when when we start talking tax planning, you know, most small business owners assume that that is over and above them that, you know, this is for your large businesses, but your practice is focused on smaller companies. Right.

Sarah Holtrup  25:28  
Right. Absolutely. And, and I find that it really, it's never too soon, you know, and the best way that you can get started, just by working with someone on the planning side, and it truly is important, because by structuring your activities appropriately from the get go, and also understanding what you can and can't do, you're putting your business in the best possible trajectory for success.

Ed Mysogland  25:53  
The funny thing is that, you know, most of most companies, or one of the greatest challenges that that we have, from the time that we have a buyer to to consummating the deal is due diligence, and the quality of the financial statements. And the ability to provide supporting documentation in that review, typically yields a favorable outcome. But those companies that the financial statements are a mess, and like you're saying, you know, the disorganization, it really impairs the ability not only to get a premium value, but it also impairs the ability to actually sell because that business buyer is looking at how do they mitigate their risk, just in case that you aren't doing what you should be doing from a reporting from a just a financial integrity standpoint. So I hear Yeah, it's a challenge. So do you do any kind of work like that with business owners? On the pre sale? I know you do the tax planning, but do you do any kind of pre due diligence work, for lack of a better word?

Sarah Holtrup  27:06  
Something very similar. It's part of the planning process. Because, you know, for us, you know, as I was saying, it's, the statement that I hear most frequently from my clients is like, I didn't know, I didn't know I should do this. I didn't know I could do that. And they didn't have a good grasp of their business's financial situation. And because they didn't, you know, these are good business people, but they didn't have the tools that they needed to be able to run the most successful and profitable business that they could. And that really affects the underlying value. And I could see it from a buyer's perspective, we're, how does the folks sport in the best order? I would be worried? Are there some problems lurking around the corner? Are there going to be some surprises? And really, I would see it as an opportunity for maybe by business at a discount, because of that condition, without question. And so I would see it as when I've worked with clients as they were trying to when it was going through the process of I think that I want to sell or I'm not really sure what I do in what I want to do with my business, I don't know if I want to involve my kids or my kids may not be interested, that's a pretty common occurrence that we work with them. Because there's some really great strategies that we can incorporate to help make sure that we're building your business to the best value it is that helping you grow your tax bill. And by doing that, you're you're enhancing the value exponentially, just with the lower tax bill plus it and the value that you're adding. But I really do say that there is that really a false thought out there, that the more successful you are, the more you have to pay in tax. And that simply isn't true. And, you know, there's a second piece that you have a lot of control over how much you pay in tax. It's just a matter of the tax planning is not for the wealthy, the ultra wealthy, the fortune 500 companies, and it's for companies like ours. And really where it's the most valuable is for companies like ours. Do you have a crystal ball? Oh, I wish I did my magic eight ball. I ask questions all the time. You know, I will say and not to get political at all, but I think this year we're going to it's going to be a little bit dicey with the election coming up. So and Politics does affect tax strategy. So we always need to look ahead, but you know, what I tell people, it's, you know, there are some decisions that we may want to wait until after the election to kind of see what shakes out. But there are others where we kind of need to say we need to make the best educated decision that we can and just go with it. And just move forward.

Ed Mysogland  29:48  
I was gonna ask, what's your crystal ball on? If it's a Republican presidency versus a Democrat?

Sarah Holtrup  29:55  
No, I think the big question out there 20% qualified business deduction that you saw for or put a pass through entities, and you're talking about sole proprietors for partnerships for S corporations, when that was enacted under tcja. That's a temporary provision. So it's set to expire. And, you know, the question that comes up if there is a change, that could go away. And that's been a big driver for many small businesses, you know, that was a needed tax break, and I'm one of the strategies, we will look at it, what can we do to make sure that we're maximizing that UBI deduction? So a lot of the plan was driven by that, or on the corporate side for for your C corpse, that reduction in the tax rate is a permanent change. That doesn't mean that if if we have a substantial shift and philosophical direction, that could be done. And that mean, for many small businesses need see corpse a lot more desirable. And so that's going to be the question out there. I, I do, I am an advocate for small business owners, I am a small business owner, and my belief is, as small business owners, what we do matters. We are the ones who are building the jobs, we're bringing in jobs, we are we are building the our economy. And so I would never want to see anything that that occurs that jeopardizes the impact of and the viability of small businesses in our country. Yeah. So that is, you know, when I look ahead, and they say, well, we need to make sure that we're setting up our landscape to make sure that that doesn't happen. But then again, that's where I say, as business owners to tell responsibility, let's make sure we plan, let's make sure that we've done everything we can to minimize our tax bill. Again, we want to be weak, we're doing everything legally, ethically, ethically, or morally, I joke, I'm not I don't look good, and orange, never gonna happen. We want to make sure that we're doing everything in a compliant way. But being compliant and paying taxes that we don't need you. That's not that's not being a responsible business owner. When we do that.

Ed Mysogland  32:14  
It's a, it's an interesting situation. And one of the stats that I just recently bumped into was that entrepreneurship is on at a 40 year low, you got to wonder what the impetus of that is, is it because of things like this, that it's just hard to be a small business owner in the, that the the juice isn't worth the squeeze? And, you know, I look at my kids, and I'm like, Well, you know, I would love for them to own their own business, and control their own destiny and do all those things, the reasons that small business owners get into business to begin with, but at the same time, you know, the complexity, it just takes the joy out of doing the service that you provide, or the product that you make. And so, yeah, I hear what you're saying. But I agree with you, it's the backbone of America. And I think it'll always be that way, I just hope that, you know, from using services like yours, where you can ease the complexity out of the equation, so that that business owner, you know, here's a path to success,

Sarah Holtrup  33:19  
you know, running a business is, it's challenging enough. You know, depending on the type of business, you've got so many of the legal restrictions on compliance and enforcement, and we've become a much more litigious society. So there's a lot of fear out there. And I think that that's one barrier, or reluctance that I see for some of my clients to look into tax planning, because they feel like they're, they're opening themselves up to even more risk, where actually it protects you, because you're laying yourself in a trajectory where you know, what you can and can't do, and you're, you're ensuring that you're following the rules. And businesses these days, I mean, we have such a challenge on running our businesses, everything's running at a faster speed. And we're almost expected to be experts in every different area. And all at once. And I mean, and there's a there's a part of, unfortunately, no learning curve, which you simply can't do it. And that's why I do say for every business owner, at least get a consultation particular tax planning, just to give you an idea if there's an opportunity and you know, like for me, I don't I offer free consultations, either just to give an idea of what I what I'm seeing you know, here's how you would benefit and if I see something really glaring you know, I will definitely let you know like sure my concern. Here are some things because I never want anyone to be in hot water. And there's a piece of let's get your corrected and even if you don't work with me, I want you to at least know so you can you can be on that path to get that corrected. But I think we I'll need to work in terms of, you know, our businesses are very much a reflection of ourselves. And we need to make sure that we weren't guardians of that. And I see a part of that process. My business and our clients become better guardians, not just of their businesses, but really their financial situation. Because they feel instead of feeling like they're at the mercy of the IRS, and the State Department of Revenue, or even their own tax advisor, they feel empowered. Because this is a complicated process where it goes through and it's understanding, here's, here's what's working, and here's how the tax law works. And it's an ongoing basis. And then my clients are able to come to me and say, Sarah, I see this opportunity. What should I be doing? How can we do that? So they're able to incorporate tax smart opportunities in their day to day operation. And there they become active participants really in the financial decisions, and really the direction, not just for their business, but for their families. So I see great ripple effects. Because when we have financially strong businesses and our community, they hire people, they buy things. They support the causes and organizations that are important to our communities.

Ed Mysogland  36:22  
Amen. Oh, that's,

Sarah Holtrup  36:24  
that's what I want. And, you know, it may just seem like on which to taxes, that tax bill, what, if you had 20% More of your business saying 20%? More? What would you do that sounds funny.

Ed Mysogland  36:36  
Amen to that, as well as, from a value standpoint, you add 20% more to your earnings apply, you know, three to five, multiple, I mean, that that's an entirely different company. So I totally, I totally agree with you. So I want to be sensitive to your time. You've got a book in the works, right?

Sarah Holtrup  36:57  
I do. It is coming out. Actually, at the end of this month. It's called your business and the IRS Survival Guide. And it's a collaborative book, I talk about unpaid payroll taxes, and the trust fund, personal assessments. But what I would say for your listeners, feel free to shoot me an email, and I would be glad to send a copy to them.

Ed Mysogland  37:17  
That leads me to my final questions. So what's the best way we can connect with you? And the

Sarah Holtrup  37:22  
best way to connect is, if you'd like to schedule a consultation? Or if you've got a question, please feel free to you can either go to my website, which is profitable insight.com. Or you can send me an email at Sarah at profitable insight.com. If you go from my website, you can click on the link to schedule a consultation. And we can set up a time to talk more about your situation, you can see if tax planning might be a good option for you. Or if you've got a question, feel free to shoot me an email. And I respond to every email that comes through. However, I can help you I want you know, again, I'm a I'm a believer in small business owners. I am a small business owner, and I want to see them succeed.

Ed Mysogland  38:02  
Yeah, and that email is Sarah with an H not a the new school with a with a just an A because I have a say.

Sarah Holtrup  38:14  
We joke that the H is probably the only thing that silent about eight so

Ed Mysogland  38:21  
so I will have links to all of that in the show notes. And so, again, Sarah, you know what, and truly thank you for being so generous with your your time and experiences. And this certainly helps business owners maximize their value. So again, to learn more about Sarah and what her clients are saying about her go to profitable insight.com Sarah again, thanks so much for being a defender of business value.

Sarah Holtrup  38:47  
Thanks so much for having me. And thank you for what you do to help our small businesses and small midsize businesses make those transitions and help give them options for when they're ready to sell.

Ed Mysogland  38:59  
We'll keep doing it and I look for the next opportunity for us to bump into each other. Sounds

Sarah Holtrup  39:03  
great. Thanks so much, Ed.