EP 53: Does Race Play a Factor in Business Value and the Salability of a Company?

Ed Mysogland  0:00  
I've conducted over 50 interviews for this podcast. And I've never been more nervous than today. Today's podcast is about does race play a factor in business value in the saleability of a company? And so I'm sitting here thinking about all these questions that I have about this. How am I going to ask these questions without offending without not being sensitive, especially given the situation we're in, you know, the, the protests and such at the time of this recording? I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity to interview my colleague, my colleague is is Jamar Cobb Dennard. Not only is he just a great guy, he is so easy to talk to, and he provides really a safe space to ask these questions. I had so many people say, tell me, you know, don't ask dumb questions. And unfortunately, I'm not really certain what's a dumb question these days? So Jamar, really, like I said, gave me the opportunity to ask all these kinds of questions. So little bit about Jamar, he's Lexa. He's a great guy. He's an attorney. He works. He works with us at the business brokerage, any sales position he's had, he's always been in the top 10%. He's been in just about every leadership program that we have in Indianapolis. He's just everywhere. Most recently, he ran for the city of Lawrence. Mayor last just by I think it was 180 votes, and their loss was our gain. And our practice is so much better because we have him so I hope you enjoy this longer episode of defenders of business value with Jamar Cobb. Dennard. Please welcome please welcome welcome. This is another episode of the defenders of business value podcast. podcast where we talk about what makes a business valuable learn the tips and tactics to increase your company's value that only veteran filmmakers know. And now here's your elf in miso plant. I'm your host, Ed Mysogland. I teach business owners how to build value and identify and remove risks in their business so that one day they can sell their business at maximum value when they want, how they want and to whom they want. On today's show, I'm, I'm excited. I'm really excited about this, this conversation and to be honest with you, I'm actually kind of nervous about it. And my guest today is Jamar Cobb Dennard.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  2:36  
So we're going to show Jamar, hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Ed Mysogland  2:39  
Before you came on, I gave a high level overview of you. So can you talk a little bit about what you are is about and how you're serving business owners?

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  2:48  
Sure. So you know, I started my career in Indianapolis in 2003, and professional services and business services and have really taken that trail over the course of the last decade and a half, by also getting my law degree and running for mayor of the city of Lawrence primarily on making sure that we had a really great environment for small businesses to thrive. So now I get the distinct pleasure of working with you on a daily basis, selling small businesses. But it's really been a great combination, or I should say, convergence of my background of doing leadership and small business consulting and sales, consulting, and also my legal training, to be able to make sure that we get more small businesses sold, especially since you know, there's so many retirees right now who are looking to exit their businesses. And obviously, this is the time the next decade or so to make sure that there's a great wealth transfer. And we continue, I mean, small businesses driving our economy. And so we got to make sure that that continues into the next generation.

Ed Mysogland  3:51  
I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're in the practice. I'm and I'm glad we're gonna have this conversation. And I've done 53 podcasts, all kinds of people have heroes to people that they hadn't heard of. But today we're going to talk a topic that's a lightning rod right now. And that's, and that is racism. I didn't sleep well. Last night when you agreed to come on my podcast, I was sitting there. The bad thing is I have I have my wife sitting there saying, you know, don't say anything stupid. Our marketing director, she says don't say anything stupid. And, and so I'm sitting there going, alright, well, how do I how do I avoid not saying anything stupid, but and that's part of the challenge and why I'm so grateful that you came on and I'm here to learn and a lot of the things I wasn't aware of and happy Juneteenth I had heard of it. I didn't know enough about about it until till you agreed to come on. So it's fortuitous that we're, we're talking today. That is that happy Juneteenth

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  4:58  
you. I don't know if it's happy or or, or what, but at least you and you're recognizing it. And I can tell that you're very well researched, you spent some time yesterday evening and you're like, you know, I'm gonna look up all the things that I need to know and be very well prepared, which is great, because you and I think a lot of other people who are open minded and ready to take on what the next generation needs, from leaders who care about making sure that there's equity in our businesses and equity and workplaces. You're up all night, thinking about this stuff. You're spending time doing the research you're doing, digging into what Juneteenth is, and being sensitive enough to even ask the question, is it happy? Because there's a lot of folks who say, this is hogwash, it doesn't affect my business, it doesn't affect the value of my business, and they just dismiss it. But it's leaders like you and others that I've talked to in the past two or three weeks, who have really, really been impressive to say, hey, we've got to do better as humans to each other. And this is how it starts. So I'm really appreciative and impressed.

Ed Mysogland  6:04  
Thank you for that. And that leads up to the backdrop of, I'm just going to ask my questions, and I, and I was trying to, as I was thinking about it, I don't know, what are the lightning rod things today, when we were talking about about you coming on yesterday? You know, I'm sitting there going, Okay, I would have hired Jamar, regardless of the color of his skin, I would have you certainly have the qualifications, I think you're going to be a great deal maker. But then I'm sitting here going, did he, even though I told him, I thought the African American community was underserved in this capacity of buying and selling companies? Did I do it wrong? Did you take it? Oh, he's taken advantage of my ethnicity, to capitalize on the business. And I didn't want that. And but my point was that now all of a sudden, I'm looking at those things that I should have said something different. So that's where the conversation begins is how do we start these conversations, so one,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  7:03  
I would just go ahead and start them.

Ed Mysogland  7:07  
Real, real complex,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  7:09  
right? It's okay to sound stupid, or say something that you don't know. And you don't even have to apologize ahead of time, or Bumble over it. And you're not the only person who's thinking this and feeling this. Like, I feel like I've had a very similar cadence of conversation with other non black or non minority leaders over the last two or three weeks. And they're like, I just don't want to say the wrong thing. But the fact that you're concerned about saying the wrong thing means that you care enough to have an open conversation. So you know, if you're talking to somebody especially so with me, you've got an ally, for white allies, if that's the best way to put it, I was the only black person and my elementary school for two years. And they have this thing called predominantly white institutions or PW eyes. So essentially, unless you go into historically black college, university, or work in a black business, which are less of those than any other type of business, if you're going to be a professional in America, you're in predominantly white institutions. So the African Americans that we as professionals, whether you're black or white, that you come in contact to are used to being around people who don't look like them, who didn't grow up, like them who don't, or may not, you know, engage in the same entertainment that they do or et cetera, right. It's okay to say the wrong things. If it's like egregious, I'll tell you in a nice way, but most likely, I'm just happy that you're open, have this conversation, and you're okay with being uncomfortable. Like, that's, that's great.

Ed Mysogland  8:46  
Thank you, again, for the for the permission to speak freely and, and know that it's a safe place to visit, you know, cuz, again, I look at my, my children and your children, and I'm like, I just want it better for them. And I don't know what that looks like. But I know, I know. We're taking steps toward it. And that's, ultimately, I don't know what the progression is from here. I don't know how quickly it's going to happen. But I know it's progressing. And it took yet another tragedy, but there's movement. And so

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  9:22  
this tragedy is different. I was even talking on another call last week, that in the early 90s, we had Rodney King, you remember that? Sure. We all just get along. Right? Right. And we watched the video of this guy being beaten by multiple police and there were riots and people were upset. And then here we are 30 years later, and we're saying the same thing and there's still riots and people are upset. But I think the turning point here the difference is two things. One we saw from beginning to end, the New York Times actually did a really really great recap of the George Floyd incident. It It's time stamped, it uses three or four different videos from the, I think Chinese restaurant across the street, a couple of the bystander videos, and I think another security cam footage, some 3d modeling of where people were and what happened. And then you see, you know, almost all of the entire eight minutes of the police officers knee on George Floyd's neck. So regardless of the conversations around George Floyd's background, and his felonies, and etcetera, what America saw and what the world saw was a man who wasn't fighting back. He wasn't fleeing, you don't have a weapon. And he was begging for his life, like, just give me air. And I think what touched so many people's hearts was the fact that there was a lack of humanity in that moment. So that's one turning point is everybody got on the same page. And that's the human page regardless of race. The second thing that's different about this is that it's not just black people who are mad, it's all races, all cultures, all creeds across the world are upset. And I heard this quote, last week, and it really struck me because I never thought about it this way, that to fix bias in the world, or to even address bias in the workplace, or address bias and business ownership and business value. Black people or minorities aren't going to be the ones who have the capacity or the ability to make the change. We've all got to work on it together. And it's got to be led by the people who have the money and the power and the influence, which for the most part aren't African Americans in our society. And I think that's the turn here is now we've got everybody's attention. And people like you, who are leading organizations, who have access to business owners to have capital and leadership in their communities, and a voice to those people. It's people like you, they're going to be the ones that really help our culture turn the corner.

Ed Mysogland  11:57  
That makes total sense. So you want to talk about business value and saleability of businesses?

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  12:02  
Yeah, Scott, let's get down to the nuts and bolts.

Ed Mysogland  12:06  
I found an article, like I said last night, it it's entitled blackout? Why don't black people support black businesses. And in that article, it said, study after study has proven the biggest factor in determining who gets a business loan and who doesn't is race. And when a black person does get a loan, they pay on average 32% higher interest rates, it's no surprise that our businesses fail fast at a faster rate. And although we make up 13% of the population, just 7% of businesses are owned by blacks. And this is what we were talking about before was that, why don't African Americans buy businesses? Why? Why does it seem as though African Americans start businesses and knowing that the failure rate across the board regardless of ethnicity, you're looking at an 87% failure rate? Why aren't they buying businesses, part of it

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  13:00  
is background and legacy. And we can talk about this, I think in a number of different contexts today. But the first is, how many African Americans you know, whose great grandparents owned a business, it wasn't that many because they weren't allowed to, or they didn't have access to the capital to capital in the early 20th century, or segregation prevented them from running businesses, or they had that business, but it wasn't passed down through generations. Right. So that's one piece. The other piece, and the biggest is funding. You and I chatted about this really briefly yesterday, and you ran down some of the some of the statistics 1% of venture capital is invested in black businesses only 2% invested in women, the number of black businesses and minority businesses is increasing in the United States, but their value is decreasing. But the funding issue is really at the core. So some of the statistics from the United States Department of Commerce, say that businesses owned by African Americans that are less than half a million dollars are less likely to get approved for a loan, they have less net worth, therefore, the applicants have less net worth. So therefore, they have less cash or capital that they can use to secure a loan. And then like you just said, the loan amounts tend to be smaller, there's higher interest rates assigned to those loans because the bank see them as a risk and they get shorter term. So then the payments are higher. Let me tell you the story. So there's a company called power's and Sons construction that was started in the East Chicago, Chicago area, Indiana, Chicago. They've got a branch here in Indianapolis and I think another office around the Indiana region. The way that this company got started was not necessarily in commercial construction, which is where they are now but it was in building houses. And the problem that African Americans had in the middle of the 20th century. Well as they may have worked at a factory, they moved north from the great migration from the South to Detroit or Chicago, etc. They got a job making good money, they were able to save a little bit of cash. But one, if they could buy a house, in a neighborhood that was essentially owned or constructed by whites during segregation, they couldn't get a loan from the banks, which is part of the same issue we're dealing with now, for minority business owners is that disparity and discrepancy and them being able to get loans, what powers in sons did was they went to a black owned insurance company. And the insurance company had liquidity, because they're, like all insurance companies on amount of cash. So then the insurance company made loans through the black construction company, so that African Americans can get homes and Chicago and Chicago, Indiana, it's that same type of issue that we're dealing with now, you know, African Americans can certainly get loans now from banks, but in underwriting are there still some unspoken? Not I can't even say rules, but unspoken methods of displacing and keeping African Americans from getting loans. Well, you know what,

Ed Mysogland  16:12  
and when I was researching this, I found 22 sources of minority access to capital, all of them, every single one wasn't buying a business, it was starting a business incubators, that FedEx had a grant for African American people that start businesses. And I'm sitting here going, it's the highest risk what have, of course, I mean, and you and I both know that the biggest challenge, you know, when you buy a company, it's not only the purchase price that you're paying for, but you're also paying the second check, which is the working capital. And I suspect that that's where the challenge is that it's okay to start it it's the problem is to keep it going. And they run out of capital and access to capital. What do you think? I mean, is it are we on to something

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  17:04  
or no, it is. And so capitalisation is not taught, whether it's how to leverage cash to get an SBA loan, or to have enough cash leftover to fund working capital. The other piece of this is just psychologically for African Americans. So we've only had money since for two generations, the generation that is slightly older than you so really, my parents age 60 and 70 years old now. They were taught go get a job.

Ed Mysogland  17:33  
Let's pause that right now. Oh, how old? A parent your parents age.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  17:39  
no older than you and my parents age?

Ed Mysogland  17:42  
Oh, I gotcha. I was gonna say I'm not, I'm not that much older.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  17:49  
So I almost said your age. But no, it's kind of a half generation before because your Gen X, right?

Ed Mysogland  17:55  
Let's go with that.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  17:59  
They call me an older millennial, because I was born in 81. So nice. But they were taught, go get a job, keep the job for 30 years, save your money, retire, don't risk it, don't let anybody take it from you, and invest it in the safest way possible. So for somebody to take 100 or $200,000, out of their retirement savings, or out of any type of savings vehicle or get a home equity loan to fund that type of thing. Culturally, that's not something they would do. But to say, you know, what, take 10k and go open up a little coffee shop on the corner and see if you can make a go at it while you keep your job. That's more than mentality. So part of it is teaching and training. And then the other piece is, you know, even in talking to young entrepreneurs who are looking at acquisition ins now in our business, I'm having to go through the education process of saying, here's what you would need for an SBA loan, here's the cash that you'll need to fund your first six or 12 months until you start to get cash flow ROI from your debt service. Here's how to think about debt service and managing that stuff. I mean, it's, it's unless you have an MBA, it's all new for these folks.

Ed Mysogland  19:16  
I say, that's a great segue. And, and again, it's back to this research. Black Wall Street. Never Never heard of this. And for those of you that haven't heard of it, and I'm probably not the guy to be sharing it with you, but Black Wall Street, this was a section of Tulsa, Oklahoma that 100 years ago, they the racist burned it down. And this area was 12. I believe it was 1200 African American owned businesses. It was a thriving community, and they burnt it down. The question that it prompted for me was, it is more prudent to save than risk for the opportunity to be well The

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  20:01  
so that was the time where you had like this black Renaissance happening and happen in music. It happened in art in the early 20th century 1910 1930, even stretching to the 40s. But it's like the madam CJ Walker, the web deploy time where Langston Hughes, where there was literature and music and business. And because of Juneteenth and slavery disbanding, you've got this black bourgeoisie a culture evolving where suddenly, African Americans were free to have money and their own culture, right. That's kind of that same time period. And the the thought process behind that, that that time. But once we got to the 50s, and Jim Crow really kind of started to strangle that that growth, the mentality was, and it's especially the people who were born in the 30s. And we're at the tail end of the spurt of post slavery time, but also in the throes and heat of Jim Crow. It was, again, go to get the job, save your money, do not risk this, or you're screwed up for yourself, because you're, you're not in control. Now, on the flip side of that, and a lot of people don't talk about this, but there's a school of thought that desegregation in the 60s, actually dismantled African American self sufficiency, because he had to have your own basically as a community in order to thrive because you weren't able to go to the places that were segregated, or weren't able to have the same access to the places that were segregated. So at that time, pre or during segregation, you had to take risks, you had to open your own business, you had to invest in yourself in your own community. But now you don't have to. So there's also this mental shift of now we can rely on the credit systems, we can rely on keeping our small savings and don't risk it. So yeah, that Black Wall Street juxtaposition is really interesting with how life is now because African Americans don't have to be self sufficient in America. And that's decreased our risk tolerance,

Ed Mysogland  22:10  
it totally makes sense. The more I dug into this, the more I'm like, one of the things that I wanted to ask is, do you believe that minority owned businesses are valued differently? I know that the buyer pool is probably different. We can talk a little bit about that. But are they valued different? What do you think, actively, I

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  22:30  
don't think that black businesses or minority businesses are valued differently, I think there would be very few people and the professional class that would say, well, that's a black business. So instead of a 3x, we're gonna give them a 1.5. But because of how that business is structured, and the knowledge of the business owner, we could come up with a different value consistently across the board. So here are a couple of thoughts on that one. We talked about this, but there's a legacy issue. So I have a juris doctorate. Did you know that black people literally weren't allowed to be attorneys until the middle of the 20th century? Right? Straight up, couldn't do it. Right. So that has an impact on cash because attorneys and CPAs and doctors, etc, the professional class, were able to enter the middle class at a higher rate and higher level than other professions. So generational cash, there's no money being handed down or inherited through generations, it has an impact on knowledge. So next week, my kids, she's nine, she's gonna go to the kids voice, kids lawyer camp for a day, right? That wasn't happening generations ago. So how does it impact the next generation, there's an impact on long term value, and a track record of success. Because you don't have a business that's been in business for 80 years, it may be 10 years, right? We talked about access to capital. So if that business had to grow organically, or they didn't have the knowledge of how to leverage capital, or capitalization of secured instruments in order to grow their business, that's going to decrease value. Also financial literacy, then being able to even put together or run their p&l and cash flow statements and balance sheets themselves or know who to go to to get those things done or know what to ask access to professionals that goes to that to good accountants, good attorneys, good financial planners, and having a wide enough network of those people to get to the ones that are really going to help you and give good value and that you can afford. And then also risk management knowledge, you know, what type of insurance do you need to protect the business? What type of insurance key key employee policies and what other type of life insurance vehicles can you use to reinvest your assets? So all of those things are knowledge that aren't widely known. There are a lot of African Americans who know this stuff really well, but the majority don't. And part of it's because our family Please don't know those things and we're not passing it on.

Ed Mysogland  25:02  
Like when I look at market data or I build out valuations, it's blind. I mean, you, you don't have financial statements, don't talk ethnicity. But I but I wonder when you start talking about the buyer pool, when an African American business goes up for sale, does the buyer pool all of a sudden become limited? You're on a business and I'm replacing you. Does that automatically increase my risk? Because we'd look different? I think it does. I think it's I think it's easier for an African American owner, to our business buyer to buy a a non black business than it is for a non black business buyer to buy an African American business, you know what I mean price.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  25:48  
So let's, let's look at this in two ways. Let's go to the highest level of professionalism here. Let's talk about a business that I know it's located downtown. And one of the towers in Indianapolis, it's a technology company, they've been in business 25 plus years, maybe even 30. They've got 50 employees, they do technology integrations for governments across the United States. And you know, they're worth 20 30 million bucks. Almost all of their employees are African American, the owner is African American, he's made an intentional decision to hire the most talented African Americans that he can to surround himself with, but also to bring up to the next level. What would you think about buying that business? Good financials, good marketing, good track record, but you know that everybody in there is black?

Ed Mysogland  26:40  
My concern would be that, that I don't possess the same leadership skills as the owner. That wouldn't be you know, that doesn't look like me, even though it could be. It could be status quo, I'm not going to change anything, we're going to keep doing business as usual. I don't know if they would see me in the same leadership capacity, you know, that you don't know about me yet. You know, that, then that you don't you don't understand me and what it took for me to get here. You know, I think that's, that would be my initial thought that that would that would cause it would cause me to look at it more, that the investment was more was had greater risk.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  27:21  
Yeah. And that's very fair. So the first thing that you said, you don't have the same leadership skills. I would disagree. I think you'd have the same leadership skills, but you wouldn't have the same leadership context.

Ed Mysogland  27:33  
That's better. I like your hands are better.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  27:35  
Here's why I say that. Black people or minorities in predominantly white institutions, organizations, come with additional context that non blacks don't have. For example, when I was growing up, my grandma taught me a few things. She said, when you go into stores, keep your hands in your pockets. Don't touch anything. Don't wear a tank top. Don't put a stocking cap or do rag on your head. Don't wear a face mask Coronavirus, right, with just a little, little odd deal have to deal with. Don't wear a hat, get a receipt, get a bag, even if you're just getting a stick of gum. So those are things and that's just like the tip of the iceberg. That's the type of thing that people of color, think about all the time. I'm in an elevator with a white woman. And this is like a microaggression. And she might stand a little farther away and grip rehearse. I remember, I was in Switzerland, studying piano in 1997. And I had practice too long the practice room. I had to go the bathroom, really super duper bad. And so I was basically running down the hall of you have a conservatory and see on Switzerland. And there's this white French woman who was walking down the hall to the bathroom as well. They had genderless coed bathrooms, right? It's it's Europe. But I was running behind her and you should have seen her looking eight tons behind her and kind of walking faster and getting nervous because I was running up to her right but I just had to go to the bathroom. And so or in parking garages having to think about if there's especially a woman that's a different color, walking behind her or flashing the lights on my cars, so she knows that I'm going to my car and not trying to approach her and I'm wearing a suit and tie and have $300 co Hans on right like, but that's the kind of stuff that contextually leader that's not African American would have to think about in those businesses. On the flip side. I've talked to a handful of black buyers, right. So one of them is in the real estate industry. He came to me and said hey, you know I've saved $100,000 Cash, I want to buy a business. So let's walk through some stuff. So one of them businesses we talked about was in a midsize rural ish town and central Indiana. And he said, Yeah, business numbers look good. Yes, it's strategically related to my business. But all the staff is white. They're from the rural area. And I'm really concerned, would they respect me and respond to me as a black investor newer in that business? And that was the concern that took that deal off the table. Sure. So I think you're right it.

Ed Mysogland  30:34  
All right. So how do you fix them? Yeah, what do you do? And again, it, they may be just a societal society improves, all of a sudden deal flow improves between, you know, that an investment is an investment, regardless of the color of your skin. Yeah. But

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  30:51  
you've also got to think about actually being able to go in and lead that business. Unless there's a manager in place, and you're silent and just run in money in the background, but like, what small businesses running like that? Well, I'll

Ed Mysogland  31:04  
tell you, if you were talking about the examples you were given, and what and this whole thing, a couple of things that happened. One, you know, at Butler, I had a couple guys that were were on the floor, we played football together. And you know, these are good, good guys. And all of a sudden I see on I saw on Facebook, both of these guys. Were saying, yeah, how I was profiled when I was a butler. And I sat there, and I'm like, You know what a terrible friend I was that I didn't know. And I didn't know that they were experiencing this. And they, they kept it to themselves. And then, you know, I learned from this. I put it in our corporate newsletter, The voddie Bochum video about the African American talk is not about sex, it's about how to not be profiled or if you're profiled how to how to effectively withstand that. It resonates with me. And again, it's been last few weeks have certainly been an education.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  32:10  
And before before the chat today are talking about, you know, the opportunity, they may have to swing by your house and time and visit and et cetera. I've got to actively think about coming to Carmel, I just saw a statistic that African Americans are 18 times more likely, and this is by the state arrest statistics to be arrested in Cornwall than in Marion County. And fishers. I think it was four times more likely. Yesterday, I went to the Indiana Gun Club, and I did some trap shooting around lunchtime. Everybody knows 100 and 16th Street is a speed trap. But especially if you're a black guy and a black Cadillac with tinted windows. So literally, I set my cruise control at 40 miles an hour. People are passing me by upset honking whatever. But I said, You know what, I'm in Hamilton County, and I am not about to get profile, but with a shotgun in the back of my car. Oh, you know, you gotta be thought?

Ed Mysogland  33:08  
Well, the thing is, so I so I have a police officer in my Bible study a Carmel police officer. And maybe he's the exception. I don't know. But he is the most welcoming. I mean, it wouldn't matter who who's driving a caramel. So. So being a resident, it's hard to imagine that Carmel has is that myopic in in their acceptance of others? I just I don't see it. But I do. I don't. But I'm not but I'm not not in your shoes. So statistics are what they are what we what we've learned about empirical data is it is what it is. And it's hard to manipulate those kinds of statistics. So yeah, and I do have

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  33:49  
to say that there are there are wonderful people and criminal generally. And wonderful people who are police officers, right. And there's the most police officers are really good people. And they're in it because they want it. Well, the adrenaline is great. And the job is really fun. I'd love a police officer if I was 10 years younger, and doing something else. But they're in it because they want great communities. And I don't even think that there is intentional bias in Carmel policing. But in any community, if somebody is different, you take a second look at who that person is. Even if somebody in your neighborhood like you know the people on your call the sack. If you see somebody you know, you're like, Who's this guy, right? It raises a flag, then city of Zionsville. I think the minority population is two to 3%. Most of that are Eastern or central Asians, and there's even fewer African Americans. So if you see a minority driving through Zionsville, most if you haven't seen them before, you know that they don't necessarily they're not from the community, right? And I think that's the thing. That's the turning

Ed Mysogland  34:57  
point, and what's the likelihood you're going to be able to by who you would want, like you were on the example, you were saying, what's the likelihood that in that context, what's the likelihood you're you're going to want to invest in a business? And in that area, you know, are you going to be accepted? Are you willing to risk that kind of capital? Not knowing whether or not like I said, How well you, you'll be received? I'm certain my wife has been texting me. Have you said anything stupid yet, but I'm ramping up,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  35:26  
I can firmly say that you have not.

Ed Mysogland  35:30  
So as I said, when we first got started, the brokerage is probably representative of a lot of businesses. We're welcoming, but we don't know. So we're not very diverse, not because of intentionality. It's just, that's just the way it's happened. After all these podcasts, I've learned two real big takeaways. One, it's about can you work yourself out of a job, so it's truly an investment. And number two, it's about people. And when we start talking about people, in our case, it's about deal guys. It's about how do we facilitate an environment that's collaborative, that we all can serve the people that we serve. But at the same time, our business or any other business has to be sensitive, where perhaps we weren't before, but now all of a sudden, there's a great deal of awareness. So so what I was hoping that you could talk to me a little bit about is for those business owners that say have 20 employees and less or 50 employees, I don't care what the number is, how do you now become more more sensitive to diversity? And I know people have been talking about this for years, but now, now, it's in small business line. Now, it's not just, you know, the Google saying, You know what, we're going to commit $130 million to helping the black community Well, alright, how does our shop help the black community? How do we, how are we more sensitive

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  36:51  
in this environment of COVID-19, and then also racial prejudice and bias, hyper awareness? And you actually posted this article recently, and I have reposted it because it talked about how valuation and business analysis has changed for buyers. And one of the things that was in that article said, buyers should now look at what that company's risk management plan is, and also their disaster preparedness and recovery plan is, is that plan documented? How's it been implemented? What changes have come since COVID-19? Right? And how has the company responded, the same thing goes for bias and diversity plans, especially in again, this hyper aware time. So as buyers we're considering and looking at companies, not only as COVID-19, a piece of that analysis, but also diversity, race, and inclusion should be a piece of that analysis. And part of that analysis is how is the company thought about three things one, implicit bias, second is microaggressions. Then third is creating a value based KPI, essentially, so we can attack this and I'll hit the third thing. First, we can attack this like affirmative action and say, Well, if we hire not just three African Americans as mailroom guys or custodians or secretaries, but three professionals who have a seat at the table in decision making capacities, then we're good right now, still not good. Because then you've got to deal with implicit bias and microaggressions. So first is implicit bias. And that is thinking everyone is the same and treating them that way. But the reality is, is that we're all different, regardless of our skin color. We're all coming from a different context. So implicit bias doesn't necessarily show up as active racism or active prejudice, because rarely do we see that anymore. Most people, especially in our culture, and environment would say, you know, that's pretty disgusting, Bob, right? Even if you don't say you turn that channel or that person off, because you don't want to be around that kind of human being. But how this shows up in the workplace is it's very slight, like, so you've got an annual retreat, and part of the annual or cheat is a golf outing. Well, if you are an African American, who was the first person in your family to go to college, and you grew up in a urban low income area, right? How many opportunities that you have to learn golf here when you were little? Right? So either you show up to the golf outing, and you don't know how to golf, you wear the wrong clothes, you don't have the equipment and you feel uncomfortable in the environment because of all those things put together. Or you don't go at all. And then what did they think of Jamar who doesn't show up to the team event? Tomorrow doesn't want to be part of the culture. Tomorrow is in the team player. Jamar isn't showing up as leader in our organization. Now he's just uncomfortable because he's never done this before and didn't want to make a fool of himself. Right. You know, that's Something to think about, I'm not saying don't have the golf outing, but just think a little bit more broadly about how this is impacting not just people of color, but also women or people of different ages. Right? Well,

Ed Mysogland  40:10  
historically, we've never had Martin Luther King Day is a day often in the office, and I just instituted that when I was rewriting our policy manual. When I did it, I didn't think much about when I hired you. I was like, alright, you know, this is we need to do this before. I didn't do it. And so now I'm sitting there going, Well, I wonder what Jamar thinks of of this edition, whether it was way to go this is, uh, this is a step in the right direction? Or in what? It should have been there all along. You're an idiot, you know? And that's, and both of them are viable. Yeah. How would you see that? Because I'm certain a lot of business owners are sitting in the same seat saying, Alright, I want to do something. But I don't want it to be seen as though the motivation is anything other than pure. You don't I mean,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  40:59  
yeah, Martin Luther King Day Off doesn't do anything for our corporate culture for diversity. What would be better for corporate culture for diversity is getting more young black brokers or young people of color who are brokers in the industry? Because I'll tell you what, I will for sure. In our office and in the state of Indiana, and the youngest and blackest thing and business brokerage. Across the country, we are in a super minority. So what can we do to bring more people in the business and part of what gives me fight to do well, in this business is, I've got a seat at the table in something that one, very few people have an opportunity to do, regardless of their background, but especially people who are young people who are of color. The other thing is, what can we do to intentionally bring the best knowledge that we have to African American communities? What can we do to advocate and make sure like you and I were talking about this idea yesterday, there are a lot of African Americans who don't have the downpayment for a new SBA loan, right? They, they can't get funding because they don't have money. But they don't have money. They can't get funding, right. It's a chicken and egg thing. So what can we do to advocate with all of our banking relationships and say, Hey, how can we figure out a low to no downpayment loan for business acquisition, specifically for minority communities? Right, there are some grants out there. But again, you've got to jump on your phone, right? You got to man on top of your finances, I remember trying to get a small business grant through boi through the Indy chamber, and their financial guy came to my office and look through three years of my financial statements in order to get that done. But it's because I had them. And I had a good accountant, and I was ready for it. Right? Like one day isn't going to make the difference in terms of the culture of our office. But how are we actively engaging new and more leaders, not only in our business, but in the community? Yeah, that makes sense. Second, our micro aggressions as a thing to think about in terms of corporate culture, and how that impacts who's able to take on your business next, or your analysis of a new business that you're about to add to your portfolio. microaggressions are essentially comments or acts that aren't meant to be racist. But our we talked about some of the microaggressions earlier shopkeepers watching African Americans, shoppers more closely. You know, how you feel when a group of black teenagers is in an elevator with you, whether you're a man or a woman? Like, what kind of rises up inside of you. Statements like I had a black friend once or you speak so well, or, well, you're not a thug like the other guys. Some of that stuff may come off. Well, meaning you said, and you don't want to say the wrong thing. Those are the wrong things to say.

Ed Mysogland  43:53  
So let's stop there. So So I always I've always said, Alright, brother, something like that. And at the end of you know, we would be talking, you know, like, like, brothers in Christ kind of thing. Yeah, I said that to you. And I'm like, and now like, said, it's amplified. I'm sitting there saying, that was a dumb thing to say. And what was that? Even though it's the right, the right context from the heart was at the wrong context that to say that, you know what, I mean, I think that you said a microaggression.

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  44:24  
Yeah, it is not okay. I think that like you're just brothers. I mean, it's like your drive turkey. It's like 1970s the good old days. Not that I was around in the 70s. But like, I get it, you know, it's just it's, it's a colloquialism. But I think if you're at the gas station and said that to some random, especially older, black person, they would see that as a microaggression. Yeah. Again, I've been in PWI as predominately white institutions my entire life since I was a little kid. I'll tell you two stories, one that happened consistently 10 years ago, there's nobody could figure out my name. My name is easy is Tamar. And it was funny. One of our partners at the firm heard me on the phone, and I was spelling My name very slowly. And every single letter, right, and he said, you know, if you have to spell your name like that, and tell it to them three times, they don't deserve to do business with you. And I was like, You know what? You're right. But it's a hangover from 10 years ago, when people will call me, Jerome, Lamar, Jamal, everything, but my name, and that person may have known me for 234 years, it's like, you can't get it right. You know, when I was in elementary school, again, I was the only black kid in my school at a high top 1990s fate and Isaiah Thomas. Right, nice. So all the kids like to touch my hair, because it felt cool, kind of like a sponge, right. And so during lunchtime, the fourth, fifth and sixth graders would walk through the younger kids cafeteria to go downstairs to the second cafeteria, and many of them would touch my hair. So they liked it. And they thought it was cool. And they thought they were being friendly. But that was a microaggression and an aggression, aggression. But here's your cue the story is one day I wrote a little note, because I was getting tired up. But I put it in my hair and said, Please don't touch hair. They took the note, continue to touch my hair, gave it to the lunch aid, and then I got in trouble. Because I put a sign in my hair that said, Please Stop touching me, really. So that exact story may not show up in organizations, sure. But that type of culture and that type of thinking, in small ways can show up where people who are different than a majority are treated differently, or are reprimanded because of something that is part of just who they are.

Ed Mysogland  46:53  
And I get I say I get it not. And, and again, while this tragedy is it truly is a tragedy, but the good, like like the Bible says I mean that all work all things together for our good. I do believe that. And I do believe that, you know, this is this is good, that, that there's more awareness, and it's coming quicker, you know, so it's accelerating the conversations like ours, and, and, and again, and I think a lot of business owners, I think their hearts in the right place, but the fear of I don't want to offend I don't want this to be a lightning rod, I don't want you know this to come off wrong. As we know, with business owners, they would rather do nothing, then then then stick their neck out. And I'm referring to Exit Planning now. So I mean, how do you got to get around that?

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  47:52  
So I'm going to answer your question quickly. And I do want to circle back to something related, but unrelated. So one, if you're afraid to stick your neck out, one, don't be afraid, because it's the people with hate that are going to win if the people who have good hearts that want to do right by our communities and want to make our business community better, and want to bring value to other businesses, right? Like what other way to bring great value to the African American community, then the buyer high performing business, and inject money back into those families, right. So don't be afraid and take a risk. And if you need help ask for it. So like, I'm a good conduit for a executive leadership conversation with a team. I'm a good conduit for professional associations and delivering the same type of content to have real but comfortable, but also emotionally vulnerable talks. Right?

Ed Mysogland  48:49  
I definitely would agree with you have made in the dark. You can't see that. I'm sweating. You have you have made the conversation really easy. Yeah,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  48:59  
I think it's that professional lighting that I can say that podcast swag. So but go get help, whether it's for me or for some from somebody else, you know, I've had I've had professional associations that I work with, send me emails and say, Who Who can I get to talk about this, right? Because we want to learn, I'll share some resources toward the end of our conversation here about how to become a better ally. There's so much stuff online, if you Google, how to be a better ally. I mean, just list of stuff. But I'll give you the top few that I really did some buffalo thinking around what's what's actually impactful. But let's go back just a minute. We're talking about truth of work and he said All things work together for good but the rest of that scripture is all things work together for good to them that love it. Again, we're called according to His purpose. So one, there's got to be love in our hearts for this. This is about humanity. And as business owners, the best leaders are those who are vulnerable and voted ability takes love. The second thing are those who are called according to His purpose. And as Christians, we're called to pray. And this is a hard thing. We can't change people's hearts. We can't erase prejudice and racism by legislating our way out of it. The way that we're really going to get to the next level, is we've got to have the people who know how to pray, we're called to lead, pray, and get through to the person who can actually change hearts. And that's Jesus.

Ed Mysogland  50:33  
You know, and I'm on to the last thing I want to talk about is your new program, by by business bias. Tell me about that. And, you know, how can how can we come alongside you and help with that?

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  50:45  
Sure. So we talked about a lot of the key points and by by business bias, one is identifying implicit bias what it is how it shows up in organizations? Second, what are microaggressions? How do they show up in organizations? But third, and most important, how do we create a value based system of KPIs that we can drive our companies with? Not just let's hire three people and call it a day? But how do we create a culture that has checks and balances within itself, that we really not only value diversity, but have values that support anti bias, and that supports equity in our organizations? That can show up in one of three ways. One is internal workshops with teams, I've had a lot of business leaders call me directly and say, How do I work through this thing. And, you know, let's sit down and work through it as a team and develop that, that anti bias KPI. Second is the association's that I mentioned earlier, and really thinking broadly and industry wide about how bias is showing up in organizations and how we can create equity. But third, there will be some public presentations of this program. So just keep an eye on on email and LinkedIn promotion, for some public access to this as well.

Ed Mysogland  52:02  
For all of my podcasts, I always asked every guest, you know, what piece of advice they would give the business owner that would make the biggest, or have the greatest impact on value. So instead of that, you know, what is the one thing that a business owner can do to eliminate bias in their in their business,

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  52:22  
I think is what you've done. And it's listen to that. And don't be afraid, have the courage to really look this thing in the face. I heard an interesting quote, that you don't tell victims to fix the abuser. And we talked about this earlier about who really it takes to fix some of the issues that we're seeing in America. And it's the people with the power and the money who the majority are not African American. So you know, Google ally resources Google, what are and how do we address microaggressions, Google, the implicit bias test, implicit bias test, Google Eddie Moore's 21 Day racial equity challenge to look these things in the face. And really start to self educate and figure your way around this stuff. Because whether you're building your business for sale, and one, make sure that it's strong and can transition if you have a diverse workplace, whether you're evaluating a business for sale, and you want to make sure that you're not purchasing a risk, because there's inequities in the workplace, or if you're looking at the finances, and really trying to figure out why this business may have a higher or value and multiple than you expect. These are the things and are the context that we've got to think about when we listen and act. Don't be afraid and face this

Ed Mysogland  53:39  
stuff. So what's the best way we can we can get in contact with you. So my name

Jamar Cobb-Dennard  53:43  
is Jamar Cobb Denard, I'm sure you've got the links in my name, up here. And whether it's LinkedIn or Facebook, that's actually the link to those profiles. That's the best way to one stay in touch. Second, stay engaged. And third directly contact me,

Ed Mysogland  54:00  
there's been some really good decisions that I've had the opportunity making them, one of them is you and I would have I would have hired or hired you regardless. But I am so grateful. I'm grateful for all the education and patients and I know full well that you know, you're not going to stomp on me when I when I make the mistake because it's inevitable to come. So I certainly appreciate your friendship. I'm certain you're going to be extremely successful in our profession. And quite frankly, I'm looking forward to seeing what collaboratively we can do together for the for this community. So thanks so much for being here. And like I said, we'll have everything that we talked about in the show notes and and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.